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#21
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"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
... On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks" wrote: Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently). Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar. Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation of the FARs unless taking off and landing. It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there. -- David Brooks |
#22
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For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and are just departing the active.. The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws. Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer, with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at 500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a "tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets. This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter (whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if anyone is interested. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#23
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Well check this out. In Cape May NJ, where the people have been fishing since the late 1600's, have let condos be developed by the water. Now they complain of diesel fumes and fish odor. Reminds me of the old joke: A couple was getting hot and heavy in the back of a car. The girl gets really excited and tells the guy "kiss me where it stinks!" So he drove her to New Jersey. |
#24
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The town is now going to either deny/prohibit more development because this is where the jobs are and won't let the fishing industry be dictated by developers or owners. In most parts of North America, boat building has moved inland. You can always truck a boat to the water, but the waterfront land is too valuable to be used for construction. More and more I even see boatyards located inland. In Alton NH there's a yard on a hilltop deep in the piney woods, where in winter I see scores of boats wrapped in blue plastic, the blue all gone now of course. The situation you describe is very common on the Maine coast. Most communities try hard to accommodate shoreside yards and fishing docks, because they are part of the reason that tourists come to town. The problem of course is taxes. The state has to adopt some kind of current-use taxation to favor the landowner, such as we have here in New Hampshire with farm and forest land. Shorefront lots are worth $100,000 and on up--pretty stiff for a lobster dock. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#25
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On 09 Jul 2003 14:42:23 GMT, (Brandabc) wrote:
Hey... I think the group has a very valid argument. And I fly aerobatics!! Student pilots in small airplanes practicing maneuvers are not loud. Aerobatics as flown at air shows, don't have to be loud. I think they would not accept an airplane at 2500 feet AGL doing aerobatics. I still link them to the lunatic fringe. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) PS- Motorcycles are mentioned also. |
#26
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:03:58 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote: "Roger Halstead" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:26:18 -0700, "David Brooks" wrote: Is that 10db limit really a common restriction? I suppose they mean there are local ordinances (nothing in the several CCR's I've read recently). Small planes at 500ft probably exceed that bar. Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation of the FARs unless taking off and landing. It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there. Doesn't really matter...congested or not the rule is a 1000 over and 2000 laterally. I can go out and skim the tree tops (in sparsely populated areas), but if I discover I just flew over some ones house out there, I violated the FARs. Don't fly low over towns, or rural subdivisions ... which would be classed as congested areas, but that doesn't relieve the pilot from not flying low over some ones home. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) -- David Brooks |
#27
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:53:39 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote: For most communities, the answer is most likely no. Otherwise no one would be able to mow their lawn as a lawn mower is listed at something like ... 40 db or more.. No many low flying aircraft exceed the sound of a lawn mower, unless they have a two blade prop, a big engine and are just departing the active.. The 10 db is probably at a specified distance, similar to what a neighbor would experience. Say 300 feet? While a lawnmower would in time deafen its rider (I wear earmuffs), the noise level drops off pretty fast. The same is true of chainsaws. Your neighbors lawn mower is going to be a lot louder than 10 db even at the far side of a normal lot. You have to stop and realize how little 10 db really is. Because an aircraft overhead is often a direct line to the hearer, with much less stuff to soak up the sound, it's apt to be very loud at 500 or even 1000 feet. I live under the traffic pattern of a "tradeport" so I hear a lot of airplane noise, mostly heavy jets. When I go over here on the way back to the airport I'm usually headed down hill at close to 200 MPH. When I depart I'm usually still near full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable, but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet away...and through the trees. And their lawn mowers are no where near as loud as some guy's Beagles about 5 houses to the West. So, I try to be a good neighbor even if I have absolutely no sympathy to the people near the airport. The VOR 14 to MBS starts near here so when the big jets are flying that they go overhead. Even the old DC-9s aren't all that loud and most modern day jets are not as loud as a Bonanza with a 2 blade prop on take off. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) This is a university town, and therefore a loud-party town. The residents often complain about student parties with the loud-hailers going in the night, and the police department has a noise-meter (whatever) which it will loan out to folks trying to make a case. Very rarely do they succeed. I'll ask for more information about this if anyone is interested. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#28
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full power and not much above 1000 feet. It's certainly noticeable, but no where near as loud as the neighbors lawn mowers over 300 feet away...and through the trees I'm relieved to hear it (as it were!). I suppose we notice airplane engines because they're out of the ordinary. Where I live, highway noise is out of the ordinary, so motorcycles really bug me--motorcycles being the one thing apart from sirens that I can hear from Bay Road. My houselot is 40 acres, and I can still hear my neighbor's lawnmower. And of course I can hear the airplanes overhead. Since I am on the water, of course I can hear all sorts of noise from there--even voices in boats a mile away. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#29
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:11:26 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote: "Roger Halstead" wrote in message .. . Small planes at 500 feet over populated areas are already in violation of the FARs unless taking off and landing. It all depends on what the meaning of the word "congested" is. If I thought of Duvall, WA as congested, I wouldn't have moved there. Doesn't really matter...congested or not the rule is a 1000 over and 2000 laterally. Sorry, Roger, but I think you are in direct contradiction of 91.119 here. To strip it down a little: Wellll...not in direct cradiction...I just had the altitudes wrong for other than congested. Fly over some ones house hidden in the trees at tree top level and you are still in violation...OTOH it's highly unlikely they will get your number even if it's painted phosphorescent orange and illuminated. (b) Over congested areas. ...1000, 2000. (c) Over other than congested areas... 500 above the surface except over...sparsely populated areas (where the "500ft from objects" rule works). So there are three types of terrain: congested, not congested, and sparsely If the town has the normal block and house spacing it's probably considered congested. (over a small area):-)) populated. I assert my small town falls into the second group, although we treat the nearby valley as a sparsely populated area. I can go out and skim the tree tops (in sparsely populated areas), but if I discover I just flew over some ones house out there, I violated the FARs. But you only need to get 500ft above them, according to your "(in sparsely populated areas)". Common courtesy would suggest more, but not the regulations. Don't fly low over towns, or rural subdivisions ... which would be classed as congested areas, but that doesn't relieve the pilot from not flying low over some ones home. As I implied with the Clintonian reference, it depends whether rural subdivisions are defined as congested (is there a federal definition of the word?). If they are, you have a point, but I think you still made a logical slip in the first statement. Nahhh...never happen :-)) Not long ago (within the last couple of years) one of the aviation mags had an article on this topic as to what defines the categories. Again, we're just arguing regs here. I try to stay 1000ft above my neighbors no matter where they live. It helps for good relations, but even being able to see, or hear a small plane is too close for some. Have you ever gone over to alt.activism.noise.polution? Now there you will find some extreme views. There are even a few with justifiable complaints. There are also some that fall into the lunatic fringe that propose extreme measures for the elimination of noise.. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) -- David Brooks |
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