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Clear to intercept localizer



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 3rd 05, 01:17 AM
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Default Clear to intercept localizer

I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.

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  #2  
Old October 3rd 05, 01:28 AM
Roy Smith
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" wrote:
I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.


An approach clearance lets you descend to the altitudes published on the
approach plate. A clearance to intercept the localizer is not an approach
clearance, so you can't descend yet.

That being said, it's strange that you would get to GS Intercept and not be
cleared for the approach yet. As I noticed the GS starting to come off the
top peg, I would have asked the controller if I was cleared approach yet.
If not (or I didn't get a response), I would continue to track the
localizer at my last assigned altitude.

If, as you said, you were not cleared to descend until more than 30 seconds
past GS intercept, I would have refused the approach clearance and
requested vectors back around for another try. Divebombing to intercept
the GS from above is not a good plan.
  #3  
Old October 3rd 05, 01:38 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


wrote in message
oups.com...

I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.


An instruction to intercept the localizer means intercept the localizer and
nothing more. You cannot descend until you receive either an approach or
descent clearance.


  #4  
Old October 3rd 05, 09:00 AM
David Cartwright
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
If, as you said, you were not cleared to descend until more than 30
seconds
past GS intercept, I would have refused the approach clearance and
requested vectors back around for another try. Divebombing to intercept
the GS from above is not a good plan.


Definitely. Just as excessive descent rates are not something you want in
real IMC (gently does it), the whole point of intercepting a glideslope from
below is to be sure you're following the real one, not a phantom one induced
by the oddities of radio-based navaids.

D.


  #5  
Old October 3rd 05, 02:16 PM
Nathan Young
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On 2 Oct 2005 17:17:13 -0700, "
wrote:

I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.


Once you have an approach clearance, you can descend to the altitudes
shown on the chart.

However...

It is very common for the controller to give you a vector to the
localizer and an altitude restriction until you are established on the
localizer. Typically, this would be something like: "N123, fly 130
to intercept localizer, maintain 4000 until established, cleared ILS 9
@ RAL."

Perhaps that happened, and you just missed the altitude restriction?

-Nathan

  #6  
Old October 3rd 05, 03:14 PM
Newps
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Default



David Cartwright wrote:



Definitely. Just as excessive descent rates are not something you want in
real IMC (gently does it), the whole point of intercepting a glideslope from
below is to be sure you're following the real one, not a phantom one induced
by the oddities of radio-based navaids.



ATC is required to put you in a position to intercept the glideslope
from below.
  #7  
Old October 3rd 05, 04:08 PM
Mark Hansen
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On 10/3/2005 06:16, Nathan Young wrote:

On 2 Oct 2005 17:17:13 -0700, "
wrote:

I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.


Once you have an approach clearance, you can descend to the altitudes
shown on the chart.

However...

It is very common for the controller to give you a vector to the
localizer and an altitude restriction until you are established on the
localizer. Typically, this would be something like: "N123, fly 130
to intercept localizer, maintain 4000 until established, cleared ILS 9
@ RAL."

Perhaps that happened, and you just missed the altitude restriction?


No... he said that he was established on the localizer and was still
told not to descend. It sounds like, as he said, he had not received
an approach clearance yet.

I remember two or three times during my IFR training when I was
established on the FAC but had not received my approach clearance
and had to ask for it.




-Nathan



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA
  #8  
Old October 3rd 05, 04:46 PM
Nathan Young
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Default

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 08:08:22 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 10/3/2005 06:16, Nathan Young wrote:

On 2 Oct 2005 17:17:13 -0700, "
wrote:

I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.


Once you have an approach clearance, you can descend to the altitudes
shown on the chart.

However...

It is very common for the controller to give you a vector to the
localizer and an altitude restriction until you are established on the
localizer. Typically, this would be something like: "N123, fly 130
to intercept localizer, maintain 4000 until established, cleared ILS 9
@ RAL."

Perhaps that happened, and you just missed the altitude restriction?


No... he said that he was established on the localizer and was still
told not to descend. It sounds like, as he said, he had not received
an approach clearance yet.


Ahhh, did not read it carefully enough. Thanks.

  #9  
Old October 3rd 05, 11:42 PM
Matt Whiting
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Default

Nathan Young wrote:
On 2 Oct 2005 17:17:13 -0700, "
wrote:


I want out to play last week. I requested clearance from EMT to RAL
for ILS to rwy 9. Shortly after I was level at 4000, I was cleared to
intercept localizer. As I tracked localizer, the glideslope started
down and I started down with it. At 3,700, ATC called to ask me to
remain 4000. I climbed back to 4000 and about 30 seconds later, was
cleared to decent.

I did not think about it at the time, but does clear to intercept
localizer mean I cannot decent until I am clear to decent? BTW, the
glideslope was functioning.



Once you have an approach clearance, you can descend to the altitudes
shown on the chart.

However...

It is very common for the controller to give you a vector to the
localizer and an altitude restriction until you are established on the
localizer. Typically, this would be something like: "N123, fly 130
to intercept localizer, maintain 4000 until established, cleared ILS 9
@ RAL."

Perhaps that happened, and you just missed the altitude restriction?


This seems less likely, but maybe the clearance was only to intercept
the localizer and no approach clearance was given. I can't imagine why
a controller would do this, but stranger things have happened.


Matt
  #10  
Old October 4th 05, 01:34 AM
Roy Smith
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Matt Whiting wrote:
This seems less likely, but maybe the clearance was only to intercept
the localizer and no approach clearance was given. I can't imagine why
a controller would do this, but stranger things have happened.


I think there are levels of learning to flying instruments. The first
level is learning to do all the stuff right, and that gets you past the
checkride. A higher level is the realization that **** happens, and
knowing how to deal with it without making a crisis out of it. Controllers
make mistakes. Pilots make mistakes. Charts have errors in them.

In the situation at hand, the most likely explanation to me is that the
controller made a mistake by letting the flight pass the FAF fix (GS
intercept on an ILS) without issuing an approach clearance. OK, so he made
a mistake. Three demerits from his QA department if they ever find out,
but for now, just ask him for vectors to reintercept further out and get on
with the business of flying the airplane.
 




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