Thoughts on this approach?

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...

Well, if they clear you for the approach they gotta tell you all this
other stuff and stay with you longer.


Do you mean more stuff for a SIAP than a visual approach? Other than what
I've already written, what more do they have to do? Why do they have to
"stay with you longer" on a SIAP than a visual?

I dunno. It's his job, I don't do ATC stuff, I'm the pilot. But he had
to read off a bunch of stuff to us. Notams I think. It was Center
clearing us into Goodland KS, not Approach, if that matters. He acted
perturbed cause we requested the ILS. I really don't know why. Maybe he
wanted donut or something. Maybe he was in a hurry. Maybe this, maybe
that. Like I say I'm the pilot. I don't do the ATC stuff. Been in a
tower a couple of times and toured Denver Tracon once. Hardly makes me
an expert.

Another thing they do. If you do a touch and go on your IFR cross
country, sometimes they cancel your IFR flight plan even though you
want to continue on. You know, the IFR cross country requires some
landings at more than one airport, so typically you do quick stop or a
touch and go, you take off and they've cancelled your flight plan if
you do it at a towered airport. Go to get your IFR clearance on takeoff
and the guy can't find it. Solution. File a seperate flight plan. I've
had that happen to me too.

One thing with me. If it's VMC and nice and clear, if they ask me if I
can see the airport, I say yes even if I can't. I mean I may not be
able to see it, but I know where it is, right at the end of my
navigation line on the screen. So its a roger I see it. I know this may
be fudging a bit, and I dont do it if there are any clouds or poor
visibility. But they can clear me for the visual and let me descend.
See, if you aren't cleared for the visual, they can't descend you. So I
say yes, and it definitely helps. ATC sometimes thinks I have
helicopter up there or something the way they leave you hanging up
there. But they have these rules. I don't know them all. No one does.

I'm having trouble seeing this in my mind...

Were you coming from up top (PSP) or from V64? 4000 I think is the MEA
between TRM and PSP, right (V137 TRM radial 304)? I am having trouble
"seeing" in my head how you can be "south of the VOR-C" and 4 miles
from the VOR and closer to the airport than the VOR when the VOR is
"generally" south of UDD... what was your heading at the time? Were
you pointed to the VOR or the field?

Even so, I think there must have been some sort of communication
breakdown, either between you and the instructor, you and the
controller, or the instructor and the controller. There could have
been erroneous assumptions made (perhaps the controller had just
cleared a bunch of aircraft VMC? perhaps the controller had told you to
expect vectors to visual and you forgot? If you were coming from PSP,
perhaps the controller erroneously thought that since you had pretty
much overflew the field at 4000, you could see the field (thinking it
was VMC), or the instructor radioed that s/he could see the field...

In any event...clarifications should have been in order...

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...

I dunno. It's his job, I don't do ATC stuff, I'm the pilot.


You wrote; " If it's VFR the ATC guy only budgets enough time to clear you
for the visual." What were you referring to?



But he had to read off a bunch of stuff to us. Notams I think.


Are you saying he has to do that for a SIAP but not for a visual approach?



It was Center
clearing us into Goodland KS, not Approach, if that matters.


I don't see how it would.



He acted
perturbed cause we requested the ILS. I really don't know why. Maybe he
wanted donut or something.


Are you saying controllers can eat donuts while aircraft are conducting
visual approaches but not while they're conducting SIAPs? Or is it just
ILSs?



Maybe he was in a hurry.


Are you saying it takes less time to issue a visual approach clearance than
it does to issue a clearance for a SIAP?



Maybe this, maybe
that. Like I say I'm the pilot. I don't do the ATC stuff. Been in a
tower a couple of times and toured Denver Tracon once. Hardly makes me
an expert.


So what are you basing your comments on then?



Another thing they do. If you do a touch and go on your IFR cross
country, sometimes they cancel your IFR flight plan even though you
want to continue on.


Is the touch and go being done at your clearance limit?



You know, the IFR cross country requires some
landings at more than one airport, so typically you do quick stop or a
touch and go, you take off and they've cancelled your flight plan if
you do it at a towered airport. Go to get your IFR clearance on takeoff
and the guy can't find it. Solution. File a seperate flight plan. I've
had that happen to me too.


Unnecessary. An IFR clearance is cancelled upon landing at a towered
airport that is the clearance limit. ATC takes no action to cancel it. If
the airport is not your clearance limit you still have an IFR clearance.



One thing with me. If it's VMC and nice and clear, if they ask me if I
can see the airport, I say yes even if I can't. I mean I may not be
able to see it, but I know where it is, right at the end of my
navigation line on the screen. So its a roger I see it. I know this may
be fudging a bit, and I dont do it if there are any clouds or poor
visibility. But they can clear me for the visual and let me descend.
See, if you aren't cleared for the visual, they can't descend you.


They can descend you to the MIA/MVA without an approach clearance, any
approach clearance allows a descent. If you request a contact approach or
just cancel IFR under the conditions you describe you don't have to fudge on
any rules.



So I
say yes, and it definitely helps. ATC sometimes thinks I have
helicopter up there or something the way they leave you hanging up
there. But they have these rules. I don't know them all. No one does.


I do.

Another thing they do. If you do a touch and go on your IFR cross
country, sometimes they cancel your IFR flight plan even though you
want to continue on.

Is the touch and go being done at your clearance limit?

Interesting. Suppose I wanted to do multple approaches at ABC including
touch and goes. If I filed DXR ABC XYZ, could my IFR flight plan be
cancelled upon touching for the first time at ABC? (I presume it could
if I filed DXR ABC with multple approaches and T&Gs at ABC)

Then, back in the air after doing my T&Gs at ABC, I ask for a clearance
back to DXR, changing my destination from XYZ to DXR. Would this work?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .

Interesting. Suppose I wanted to do multple approaches at ABC including
touch and goes. If I filed DXR ABC XYZ, could my IFR flight plan be
cancelled upon touching for the first time at ABC?


No.



(I presume it could if
I filed DXR ABC with multple approaches and T&Gs at ABC)


If ABC has an operating control tower, yes. Nothing is actually done to
cancel it, it's "cancelled" because you've safely reached your clearance
limit.



Then, back in the air after doing my T&Gs at ABC, I ask for a clearance
back to DXR, changing my destination from XYZ to DXR. Would this work?


Yes, but why not file DXR..ABC..DXR if that's what you want?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
why not file DXR..ABC..DXR if that's what you want?

It's been a while since I tried something like this, but FSS (at least
around here) use to insist that you could not do that, and had to file two
distinct flight plans, one DXR-ABC, and a second one ABC-DXR. I have no
idea why, but that's what they would say.

Personally, I avoid filing with FSS as much as possible (sometimes you
can't avoid it). I file through DUATS. The computer never makes up silly
rules and just does what you tell it to do.

Yes, but why not file DXR..ABC..DXR if that's what you want?

I suppose. My instructors have always filed DXR-ABC and then ABC-DXR,
with a full stop to pick up the new clearance. They have said that
round robin flights can be a problem. I've never tried it myself.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

It's been a while since I tried something like this, but FSS (at least
around here) use to insist that you could not do that, and had to file two
distinct flight plans, one DXR-ABC, and a second one ABC-DXR. I have no
idea why, but that's what they would say.


They're fulla crap. The route should be filed with a delay in hours and
minutes at the point the approaches are to be made. If you intend to fly
approaches for one hour it would be DXR..ABC/D1+00..DXR, half an hour would
be DXR..ABC/D0+30..DXR.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

I suppose. My instructors have always filed DXR-ABC and then ABC-DXR,
with a full stop to pick up the new clearance. They have said that round
robin flights can be a problem. I've never tried it myself.


The "problem" is probably due to not filing a delay at the point where the
approaches are to be flown. If an hour of approaches is desired, the format
would be DXR..ABC/D1+00..DXR. Without the appropriate delay you'd be
overdue one hour at all posted fixes between ABC and DXR. If ABC is served
by an ARTCC the computer will generate time updates, but that gets annoying.