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VFR Practise Approaches



 
 
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  #51  
Old October 3rd 10, 07:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Guy Called Tyketto
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Default VFR Practise Approaches

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Mxsmanic wrote:
A Guy Called Tyketto writes:

You miss the point again. ATC does *NOT* have to reply to you
at all, despite all your calls for Class B clearance. If you do not
hear from them, you're not getting into the Bravo at all. So you'd
better get below it (assuming you can without passing through it), stay
above it (assuming you can without passing through it), or go around
it.


Brad, I can only assume that you do not see the gaping holes in your
reasoning, but I certainly do, and I'm sure I'm not alone.


Apparently, you are alone, Anthony. So enlighten all of us.
What are the gaping holes in my reasoning? Tell me how ATC not
responding to your call gets you clearance into Class B, let alone in
it to 'do whatever you want'.

In short, put up, or shut up.


I suggest you join the Internet Chess Club and "play" me there. I'm a very
poor and indifferent chess player, and you could beat me easily (I'm at the
bottom of the rankings). That would satisfy your desire to "beat" me, and your
efforts would not be doomed to failure as they are here. Additionally, it
would spare other people on this newsgroup your sophomoric attempts to
demonstrate a superiority over me that you do not possess, and the group could
return to intelligent discussion of aviation.

I'm tired of indulging you here.


You can always killfile me. But then again, I really do not
care what you do. And if my throwing the .65T at you is a sophmoric
attempt to be superior to you, then that would cause everyone here to
assume that the FAA is doing the same thing, leading to the assumption
that you are superior to the FAA. If Blakely were still in charge, then
I would say that you *might* be right.. But she isn't, therefore you
aren't.

So killfile away. Become real tired of indulging me here. Do
whatever you want with your life. But taking your toys and going home
does nothing to argue your side of this discussion, and in fact shows
your unwillingness to challenge something that is right and documented
as such. Mais, c'est la vie, mon ami; c'est la vie.

Comme E. R. Murrough dirait, "bonne nuite, et bonne chance."

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |

Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! |
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  #52  
Old October 3rd 10, 02:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Default VFR Practise Approaches

On Oct 3, 1:49*am, A Guy Called Tyketto

What are the gaping holes in my reasoning? Tell me how ATC not
responding to your call gets you clearance into Class B, let alone in
it to 'do whatever you want'.


Actually he had it right with getting the clearance in Bravo in his
original post. He just has it flat out wrong on "do whatever you want
absent ATC instruction" after that bravo entry clearance.

Can you imagine if everybody did what they wanted in Bravo? I
wouldn't.
  #53  
Old October 3rd 10, 06:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default VFR Practise Approaches

writes:

Actually he had it right with getting the clearance in Bravo in his
original post. He just has it flat out wrong on "do whatever you want
absent ATC instruction" after that bravo entry clearance.


I'm afraid I'm right about that, too. Within the context of applicable
regulations, you can do what you want. You still have to stay at proper VFR
altitudes, remain below 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet, and so on, but you are not
constrained otherwise in route, altitude, or speed, UNLESS ATC imposes a
constraint.

If ATC needs to impose restrictions to make sure that you don't interfere with
other traffic, then rest assured, they most certainly will. If no
restrictions are imposed, that is because ATC doesn't see you as a potential
conflict for nearby traffic for the moment.

As elsewhere under VFR, navigation is at your discretion unless you are told
otherwise.

Can you imagine if everybody did what they wanted in Bravo? I
wouldn't.


No need to imagine it, as it already happens every day. Aircraft under VFR
that have not been constrained by ATC are doing exactly what they want. They
have no choice, since the pilot is the navigator and has full freedom of
action and responsibility therefore in the absence of any ATC instructions.

Suppose I want to transit a Class B under VFR to save time. All I have to do
is call up ATC before entering the airspace, get a clearance, and go. ATC may
well ask my intentions, and I'll explain that I want a transition to the
south. If there are no obvious traffic issues, ATC may simply give me a squawk
code and let me go. It's up to me to decide how to do the transition. Prudence
and courtesy dictate that I try to cross the Class B as quickly and
efficiently as possible, but no regulation requires this. I can fly straight
through, or I can decide to turn 45 degrees to head for a VOR at some point. I
can fly at 4500 feet or 6500 feet, or whatever is appropriate for my direction
of flight. I don't need ATC's approval, and there are no particular
restrictions on what I may do that I wouldn't already have outside the Class
B.
  #54  
Old October 3rd 10, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Guy Called Tyketto
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Posts: 236
Default VFR Practise Approaches

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Mxsmanic wrote:

Suppose I want to transit a Class B under VFR to save time. All I have to do
is call up ATC before entering the airspace, get a clearance, and go.


You miss my point yet again, so I'll speel it out (yet again).

You assume you GET the clearance. If ATC does not grant you
your clearance into Class B, nor even responds to your call for Class B
clearance, you will not get into Class B. ATC does *NOT* have to
explicitly state that you remain outside of Class B airspace for you to
remain outside of Class B airspace.

7-9-2.a does supply the phraseology used to keep you outside of
Class Bravo airspace, but that doesn't mean that they must *answer your
initial call*. If they don't get to answering your call, that would be
just as much denial of entry into Class B as it would to hear "REMAIN
OUTSIDE OF CLASS BRAVO AIRSPACE."

My point the entire time is that ATC does not have to tell you
to remain outside of it for you to remain outside of it. In other
words, not responding to you at all is implicit denial of entry into
Class B.

What things can you NOT do in Class B in the absence of ATC restrictions that
you would be able to do outside the Class B? Be sure to cite the
regulation(s) that backs up your statement.


Simple. Fly your plane. Regulations? 7-9-2.a. You did not get
your Class Bravo clearance. AIM 3-2-3.e. You did not get your Class
Bravo clearance.

I am not saying that ATC won't ALWAYS tell you to remain
outside of Class B, but that with the way the .65T is worded, they
DON'T always have to tell you that, either. If you don't hear the magic
words, you don't get in. If you hear "remain outside of Class Bravo
airspace", or don't hear anything from them at all, you don't get in.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
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Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! |
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  #56  
Old October 3rd 10, 07:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Guy Called Tyketto
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Posts: 236
Default VFR Practise Approaches

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Forgot to mention something here. My point, Anthony, is that
you go into this with the assumption that you will hear a response back
from ATC. If you don't hear a response back from ATC at all, that is
just as much crucial to your denial of Class B entry as hearing the
words "remain outside of Class Bravo airspace." In short, don't assume
that you will hear anything back, because if you don't, your Class B
plans are shot.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |

Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! |
http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
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  #57  
Old October 3rd 10, 08:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default VFR Practise Approaches

On Oct 3, 12:22*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

of flight. I don't need ATC's approval,
B.


WRONG. But that's ok, I'm not the delusional one here.

I fly the real world...... and gave very specific situations

and there are no particular
restrictions on what I may do that I wouldn't already have outside
the Class


You CONTINUE TO PRETEND that you fly in the real world and lie about
your real world experiences by NOT ANSWERING MY DIRECT QUESTIONS.
  #58  
Old October 3rd 10, 08:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default VFR Practise Approaches

writes:

WRONG.


Cite the supporting FAR.
  #59  
Old October 4th 10, 01:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default VFR Practise Approaches

On Oct 3, 2:57*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
WRONG.


Cite the supporting FAR.


NO!

LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN, HOW MANY HOURS HAVE YOU SPENT IN BRAVO AS PIC IN
A REAL PLANE?????????
 




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