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  #11  
Old February 10th 04, 03:30 AM
Fred the Red Shirt
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"
As a disinterested (ie I have no time for either of them) foreign
observer I find this whole squabble rather amusing

IRC Clinton never actually claimed to have burnt his draft
card he just went to University in the UK and kinda forgot
he was supposed to join the army, musta been that marijuana
he didnt inhale


I once read a detailed description of exactly how he got out of
both service in Vietnam AND National Guard duty in the US without
a deferment, being ruled out for health reasons, or consientious
objector status. Then I read it again. The process was sufficiently
convoluted that it made my head hurt.

Anyhow, WJ Clinton is not President, one might as well criticize
Grover Cleveland for hiring someone to replace him after he was
drafted.

GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.


Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.
Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.


My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.

--

FF
  #12  
Old February 10th 04, 03:37 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

Consider, if you will:

1) Being AWOL is a crime. Nothing you allege about Clinton,
with the possible exception of burning his draft card, was
or is a crime and I'm doubtful that a law prohibiting one
from burning one's own draft card would pass Constitutional
muster.


Hell, the draft didn't pass Constitutional muster!


  #13  
Old February 10th 04, 03:44 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in 20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11 added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron. Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.


  #14  
Old February 10th 04, 03:50 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

I was a staunch HAWK up through 1968 when I started to
question how the Vietnam War was being handled. We were
destoying the country to save it while we were destroying
our freedoms at home just to support Nixon and Kissinger's
egos!


Nixon didn't become president until January 20, 1969. Kissinger was at
Harvard until Nixon became president.


  #15  
Old February 10th 04, 04:08 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...


I served in the Marines from 1961 to 1966. I volunteered for
Vietnam in 1964 while stationed in Japan with the 1st Marine
Airwing. We had 3 chopper squadrons down in Danang, RSV
before there were any "ground troops" on the ground. I also
served in the Dominican Republic Crisis in 1965.

I was at one time a card carrying member of the John Birch
Society so I have some well established conservative
credentials!

I was a staunch HAWK up through 1968 when I started to
question how the Vietnam War was being handled. We were
destoying the country to save it while we were destroying
our freedoms at home just to support Nixon and Kissinger's
egos!


Your timeline suffers a bit when exposed against harsh reality. So, you were
a "staunch HAWK up through 68", when you then questioned the nefarious
intentions of Nixon and Kissenger as to how the war was being handled. The
problem with that is that Nixon did not win his first election until
November of 1968, and did not enter office until January 1969. So either
your concerns as to how the war was being managed were incorrectly targeted
(it would have been LBJ who controlled the war throughout 1968, and it would
generally take a few months after inauguration for the new administration to
have any effect on something as vast as a war effort), or your recollection
as to when you actually became convinced the war was being mismanaged and by
who were other than what you stated. be reminded it was Nixon who
immediately began the "Vietnamization" policy and was soon reducing the US
troop committment to the war.


We were doing a holding action instead of fighting to win
and it was costing us billions while destroying our youths.
I became opposed to the war because it was getting nowhere
and eventually became active in the Vietnam Veterans Against
the War.


Sorry to hear that. Having a military background, you should have been one
of those who realized (despite what the media was balthering at the time)
that the 68 Tet Offensive actually broke the back of the VC, for all intents
and purposes leaving the fight solely in the hands of the NVA. As to VVAW, I
hold little respect for an organization that conducted the likes of "Winter
Soldier", where folks like John Kerry in his ribbon bedecked fatigues and
long hair claimed US troops were apparently solely concerned with committing
war atrocities.


Absence Without Leave during a time of war was a Courts
Martial offense that could have led to the death penalty!


Bush was not guilty of being AWOL. In the Guard there are provisions for
individuals to perform "split training" and "equivalent training"
assemblies, before or after the scheduled drills, when they can't reasonably
attend the scheduled events. Based upon the NYT investiagtion results, that
is what GWB did--he was not the first, and he will not be the last, to
perform a portion of his duty in such a fashion.


I knew of quite a few Reservists and National Guardsmen who
were sent on Active Duty - usually directly to Vietnam for
failing to attend meetings. They usually had to serve their
remaining enlistments on Active Duty.


Some may have been. But *most* Guardsmen/Reservists who went to Vietnam did
so because they either (a) were in units mobilized and sent there (yes,
there were quite a few units that did that), or (b) they volunteered for
active duty (just as Bush had volunteered for Palace Alert duty, which could
have found him serving in SEA had he been accepted).

There were also a
number of officers who were busted to the Enlisted Ranks and
then sent to Vietnam.


Are you sure about that? Please provide some evidence. IIRC, the only way an
officer can revert to enlisted rank in that manner is if he had prior
enlisted service.


We the taxpayers spent a million dollars to send a not so
bright draft dodging poor little rich kid to flight school
to learn to fly an early 50's vintage interceptor designed
to shoot down Russian prop job bombers. This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.


Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat operations.

Brooks

snip further rant


  #16  
Old February 10th 04, 05:30 AM
Steve Hix
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

I was a staunch HAWK up through 1968 when I started to
question how the Vietnam War was being handled. We were
destoying the country to save it while we were destroying
our freedoms at home just to support Nixon and Kissinger's
egos!


Nixon didn't become president until January 20, 1969. Kissinger was at
Harvard until Nixon became president.


Chas verifies the saying "if you remember the '60s, you didn't live
through them".
  #17  
Old February 10th 04, 12:58 PM
Fred the Red Shirt
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in 20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11 added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron. Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.


Then my guess would be wrong, which is a chronic problem with guessing.
Can you name the instructor, or recall where you heard/read that?

Although I am far more concerned with how he conducts himself today
as President than with how he conducted himself back then, it never
hurts to know facts.

--

FF
  #18  
Old February 10th 04, 03:01 PM
George Z. Bush
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.


Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.


The following was extracted from http://www.greaterthings.com

"At this point in the Vietnam War, the US Air Force desperately needed
additional F-102 pilots to fly the dangerous reconnaissance missions so
important to the fate of American troops on the ground. With only a small amount
of solo flying experience, Bush applied for a voluntary three month Vietnam
tour, perhaps counting on preferential treatment once again to overcome his lack
of readiness, or perhaps safe in the knowledge that his request would certainly
be rejected."

Parenthetically, during his interview by Tim Russert on Meet the Press, Feb.8,
2004, Bush denied ever volunteering for service in Viet Nam. How sad that he
couldn't remember doing it; I still have my 201 file dating back to WWII, which
contains stuff like copies of volunteer statements, special orders, etc. I'm
amazed that somebody as highly organized as he is somehow apparently misplaced
his.

Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


I believe there were some National Guard troops who served in VN. Cong.
Gephardt (D-Mo), for one, was in the Missouri ANG and served in VN.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.


That may be true, but he undoubtedly was the only President who lied about it.
AIR, Clinton had applied for entrance to the ROTC and, when the Selective
Service System initiated the use of lotteries to determine which registrants
would be called for service, and Clinton drew a high number (#311), he withdrew
his application for entrance to the ROTC. He subjected himself to the draft
process, which never got around to calling him. Many other Americans did the
exact same thing, and it did not involve telling lies, merely taking advantage
of the system that had been set up to provide equity in selection.


My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.



  #19  
Old February 10th 04, 03:09 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message

thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in

20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three

Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11

added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.

Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.


No, that is not all of the deployed Guardsmen. In addition to the deployed
units, at least one activated unit (an infantry brigade out of Hawaii) found
itself transferring troops out as individual replacements destined for
Vietnam. In addition, there were troops and officers from the Guard who
volunteered individually for active duty and saw service in Vietnam.

LBJ failed to activate the Guard and Reserve early in the conflict because
he was afraid of the political backlash--but as the war drew down the lesson
that had been learned was that failing to activate in larger measure the
reserve components had actually been a factor that adversely affected
support at the root level of the nation for the effort. Hence Abrams
returned from commanding MACV to assignment as Army C/S and immediately
instituted the "Total Army" program which saw the reserve components so
enmeshed in the operational fabric of the service that it would be
impossible to embark on any future major military endeavor without
conducting significant mobilizations at the outset.

And be careful casting any "broad brush" strokes regarding the Guard during
Vietnam; while there were undoubtedly some folks in the Guard who thought
that was a way for them to serve without their likely having to go to
Vietnam, there were also a lot of veterans who had joined the Guard well
before the Vietnam conflict, many of whom had been Korean War veterans, and
all returning Vietnam veterans did not immediately run for the nearest VVAW
chapter either--many joined local Guard units (my brother returned from his
combat tour and immediately joined the Guard).




My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.


Then my guess would be wrong, which is a chronic problem with guessing.
Can you name the instructor, or recall where you heard/read that?


Maurice Udell was the name given in the newspapers just this week:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/p...namechoes.html

Brooks


Although I am far more concerned with how he conducts himself today
as President than with how he conducted himself back then, it never
hurts to know facts.

--

FF



  #20  
Old February 10th 04, 04:12 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.


Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.


The following was extracted from http://www.greaterthings.com

"At this point in the Vietnam War, the US Air Force desperately needed
additional F-102 pilots to fly the dangerous reconnaissance missions so
important to the fate of American troops on the ground. With only a small

amount
of solo flying experience, Bush applied for a voluntary three month

Vietnam
tour, perhaps counting on preferential treatment once again to overcome

his lack
of readiness, or perhaps safe in the knowledge that his request would

certainly
be rejected."


What utter crap. So the F-102 was flying, "... the dangerous reconnaissance
missions so important to the fate of American troops on the ground"? That
statement alone opens the entire quote to scrutiny in terms of veracity,
since F-102's were NOT performing reconnaissance missions "important to the
fate of American troops on the ground".


Parenthetically, during his interview by Tim Russert on Meet the Press,

Feb.8,
2004, Bush denied ever volunteering for service in Viet Nam. How sad that

he
couldn't remember doing it; I still have my 201 file dating back to WWII,

which
contains stuff like copies of volunteer statements, special orders, etc.

I'm
amazed that somebody as highly organized as he is somehow apparently

misplaced
his.


Uhmm...that is not exactly the way it was reported. Russert asked if he
"didn't volunteer or enlist to go" to Vietnam; in other words, did he join
the military with the sole intent of going to Vietnam. There were an awful
lot of folks who volunteered for military service during that time and took
what assignment they were given; my old high school history teacher ended up
serving as an MP in Germany, is he somehow guilty of "dishonorable" service?
Bush (and others) have verified that he did indeed volunteer for Palace
Alert duty. Place Alert was a program that could have taken him to any
number of duty stations, including Vietnam.

Russert: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.
President Bush: No, I didn't. You're right. I served. I flew fighters and
enjoyed it, and we provided a service to our country. In those days we had
what was called "Air Defense Command," and it was part of the air defense
command system.


Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


I believe there were some National Guard troops who served in VN. Cong.
Gephardt (D-Mo), for one, was in the Missouri ANG and served in VN.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.


That may be true, but he undoubtedly was the only President who lied about

it.

How has he lied about it? Sounds like another George Z. fabrication is
brewing...

AIR, Clinton had applied for entrance to the ROTC and, when the Selective
Service System initiated the use of lotteries to determine which

registrants
would be called for service, and Clinton drew a high number (#311), he

withdrew
his application for entrance to the ROTC.


How convenient for you to forget the part about him seeking entrance into
ROTC using political pull (something you are oh-so-quick to claim in the
case of Bush and the ANG), and his later letter to the ROTC PMS:

"First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft...I am
writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to
understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves
still loving their country but loathing the military..."

He subjected himself to the draft


By his own admission he did NOT do that. In addition to admitting that COL
Holmes had "saved him from the draft", he went on to say:

"At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D
deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self-regard and
self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by
eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on
September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my
draft board saying basically what is in the last paragraph, thanking him for
trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn
't do the R.O.T.C. after all and would he please draft me as soon as
possible." I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day
until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter
because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going
to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished
myself and gotten what I deserved."

process, which never got around to calling him.


Because he had used the ROTC PMS to step around his availability,
immediately discarding ROTC when it became apparent he was not going to in
fact be drafted. Note that he did not send that letter to COL Holmes until
*after* he was assured he was safe from the draft.

Many other Americans did the
exact same thing, and it did not involve telling lies, merely taking

advantage
of the system that had been set up to provide equity in selection.


Sounds like Clinton did indeed lie, repeatedly. He lied to COL Holmes when
he said he really was interested in the ROTC, and later admitted he had not
been interested in it for any reason other than avoiding the draft and
getting that coveted deferrment statement from the good colonel. And, even
worse, he either lied when he admitted to "loathing" the military, or later
when he miraculously claimed to admire all of those fine young people who
served--which was it?



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.


His duty performance has been scrutinized by very critical media
opponents--none have been able to deny he completed his service obligation
and was honorably discharged. That you can't seem to accept that, while
excusing every mealy-mouthed lie and dodge perpetrated by your hero Clinton
in his active and deceitful avoidance of *any* kind of military service is
hardly surprising given your demonstrated bias to date.

Brooks





 




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