Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

I was hoping you would have the common deceny not to remind me of it. I've
spent 60 years trying to forget it.




Arthur Kramer

Fact of life in war. I am not sure anyone could or should forget that, even
when one relate ones experiences with putting bombs on target, dodging enemy
fighters, and flying through flak. There is always another side to war besides
the glory and I think we all should keep that in balance.

ArtKramr wrote:

Based on his testimony befiore congress he may be the most honest man ever to
run for public office.

You're a sad, sad man. Ed points out several bold faced lies Kerry told and you
still ignore it.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/16/2004 11:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I was hoping you would have the common deceny not to remind me of it. I've
spent 60 years trying to forget it.




Arthur Kramer

Fact of life in war. I am not sure anyone could or should forget that, even
when one relate ones experiences with putting bombs on target, dodging enemy
fighters, and flying through flak. There is always another side to war
besides
the glory and I think we all should keep that in balance.

What glory????


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "ian maclure"
Date: 7/16/2004 1:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:33:48 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Jack
Date: 7/16/2004 9:22 AM Pacific Standard Time

o you consider this to be the truth of your own combat experience as
well? Care to tell us about the atrocities which you committed and which
we should, by extension, assume were common among US Soldiers, Sailors,
and Airmen in WW2?

Not a day goes by that I don't remember my bomb patterns falling in
crowded
cities that I don't wonder how many children were down there at the time.
I
never talk about that apect of the war. Kerry has a lot more courage than I
do.

The industrial paradigm of the day had the plants and living areas
interpersed within the cities. Kind of made what happened inevit-
able. Regrettable of course but given the non-precision technology
of the day unavoidable. The level of skill required to carry out
some of the pinpoint raids ( Shell House for one ) wasn't something
you could get in mass quantities. That would have reduced civilian
deaths but not eliminated them entirely.
Its not something you should dismiss lightly and if at times it
bothers you thats only to be expected. You need not however
chastise yourself for the results.

I don't think I chastise myself. It is just the persistance of memory. I did
what had to be done at the time. And I did it without reservation or regret.
But I raised three children. When they were young I would play with them, read
them stories give them hugs and kisses as a daddy does. But every now and again
as I was doing this I would think of the bomb patterns over Cologne and the
smoke and flames rising to 5,000 feet and wonder. And I am still wondering. I
guess it is the occupational hazard of all bombardiers. The bombardier on the
Enola Gay became a priest in Japan.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

I don't think I chastise myself. It is just the persistance of memory. I
did
what had to be done at the time. And I did it without reservation or
regret.
But I raised three children. When they were young I would play with them,
read
them stories give them hugs and kisses as a daddy does. But every now and
again
as I was doing this I would think of the bomb patterns over Cologne and
the
smoke and flames rising to 5,000 feet and wonder. And I am still
wondering. I
guess it is the occupational hazard of all bombardiers. The bombardier on
the
Enola Gay became a priest in Japan.


The bombardier on the Enola Gay, Thomas W. Ferebee, retired from the USAF as
a Colonel in 1970. After leaving the Air Force, he worked in real estate in
and around Orlando, Florida. He and his wife had four sons.

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/16/2004 11:19 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/16/2004 9:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 16 Jul 2004 16:01:52 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/16/2004 8:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

There is nothing in
international law which prohibits the use of .50 cal against
personnel. Nothing.

I don't think we need the Geneva convention to tell us 50 caliber heavy
machine
guns used against civilians is wrong.


Has old age dimmed your eyes so that you cannot read plain English?

Here's the quote again, "I used 50 calibre
machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were
our only weapon against people."

It doesn't say "ordered to use against civilians." It says "people".
If he were "only following orders" and they said kill civilians with
.50 cal, then he was one very sorry excuse for an officer and a
leader.

You may have read some of the twaddle of your old buddy Walt that
recounted Kerry with his M-16, which jammed. So he reached into the
boat for another M-16....does that mean he lied in the quote when he
says "which were our only weapon." Do you believe he was really
leading a Swift boat crew and they only had .50 cal?

Which is the truth and which is the lie? If he tells the truth (under
oath) in his Senate testimony, then he lies when he claims the heroism
for his actions under fire and he lies when he expounds on his
honorable service. If his service and courage under fire where
honorable, then he lied to the Senate under oath. Can't be both ways.

Can I expect another one-liner assertion of the glory of the
candidate? Or will you explain what is going on here?



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Based on his testimony befiore congress he may be the most honest man ever to
run for public office. Note that he never accused the Viet Cong of using WMD.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, give it a rest. In another thread someone made a case that many of the
"150 honourably discharged Viet Nam vets" were frauds. For the sake of
discussion let's say they aren't. That's 150 out of how many men who saw
combat? I put them in the same category as George Lincoln Rockwell who
apologized to the Nazis for having fought against them.

I was in the Army in Viet Nam and saw nohing approaching the level of approval
kerry says the chains of command presented. Did U.S. servicemen commit war
crimes without being charged? Yes. Did I see it? No. Did it occur in my AO?
Probably not. These things get around. Most of the servicemen in Viet Nam knew
something had happened in My Lai before charges were filed. They just didn't
know the specifics.

The fact remains kerry accused us of all being involved with or have knowledge
of war crimes. I know many GIs who told war stories that simply weren't true
but were good stories nonetheless. Want to hear the one about the Huey with a
broken main rotor blade so they nailed a girl to it for balance and flew home?

Art, you are supporting a man who stabbed all of us who served in Viet Nam in
the back. If what he said was true he had an obligation to take it public. He
not ONCE said the majority of vets served honourably.

How would you as a veteran feel if Bob Dole started saying all WW2 vets were
either war criminals or did nothing to stope war crimes?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 7/16/2004 3:49 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: .net


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

I don't think I chastise myself. It is just the persistance of memory. I
did
what had to be done at the time. And I did it without reservation or
regret.
But I raised three children. When they were young I would play with them,
read
them stories give them hugs and kisses as a daddy does. But every now and
again
as I was doing this I would think of the bomb patterns over Cologne and
the
smoke and flames rising to 5,000 feet and wonder. And I am still
wondering. I
guess it is the occupational hazard of all bombardiers. The bombardier on
the
Enola Gay became a priest in Japan.


The bombardier on the Enola Gay, Thomas W. Ferebee, retired from the USAF as
a Colonel in 1970. After leaving the Air Force, he worked in real estate in
and around Orlando, Florida. He and his wife had four sons.

One of the men from Doolittle's raid who survived Japanese captivity went back
to Japan as a missionary.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
Sam Byrams wrote:

[Mason's book claims] the T-38 Talon was a big challenge for people
whose total experience consisted of under 200 hours in the T-37.

I found the T-38 easier to fly than the Tweet. It was a bit "tricky" landing,
but it was also easy to learn how to land it well.


Okay, just supposing I hit the Powerball and do what any red-blooded
American would,i.e. kiss up to Chuckie and cut him a three million
dollar check. What do I have to do to get checked out in this beast?
Can the average guy with the FAA required minimums,some decent
aerobatic experience (not competition) and a willingness to pay
attention handle this airplane?

What glory????

The stuff you glamorize in your writings. Maybe that isn't your intent but
your writing style sometimes says otherwise.

On 16 Jul 2004 14:24:16 -0700, (Sam Byrams)
wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
Sam Byrams wrote:

[Mason's book claims] the T-38 Talon was a big challenge for people
whose total experience consisted of under 200 hours in the T-37.

I found the T-38 easier to fly than the Tweet. It was a bit "tricky" landing,
but it was also easy to learn how to land it well.


Okay, just supposing I hit the Powerball and do what any red-blooded
American would,i.e. kiss up to Chuckie and cut him a three million
dollar check.

?????? What is that about? Who is Chuckie?

What we have here is "failure to communicate."

What do I have to do to get checked out in this beast?

It isn't a "beast". It's a military high performance trainer. It makes
things happen fast, but it is fairly docile.

Can the average guy with the FAA required minimums,some decent
aerobatic experience (not competition) and a willingness to pay
attention handle this airplane?

If you're comfortable at 4G, can handle being upside down, can deal
with basic instrument procedures, and don't get complacent, you can
probably learn to fly the airplane. If you've got some talent, you
could probably be trained to fly it near max performance. It ain't
rocket science.

But it also isn't flying fighters.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8