GP 15 Jeta

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.

kinsell wrote on 6/24/2020 5:57 AM:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner?* There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once.* It got air-freighted to the convention to suck in
new orders

With the conventions on a two year cycle, displaying the glider this year was a
very important PR event. It was useful to me to sit in it, so I got decide between
the two fuselages - ditto for other current and potential customers. The scheduled
test flight was prevented by a snow covered runway at the airport used by the
factory.

My ASH26E came with a steerable tailwheel that had never been tested for a similar
reason (it was also delivered a year later than originally expected). Stuff
happens with new models of gliders, and getting one of the first few has more
risks than later orders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.


Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
be true.

I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
show up.

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.


Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
be true.

I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
show up.

Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.


Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
be true.

I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
show up.

Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.

I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/p...22297261160831
It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?

Tom

Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


The Viper picture is dated 2010, perhaps the number got recycled.

Where does one actually lookup the history for that registration?

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:47:19 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!


To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.


Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
be true.

I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
show up.

Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.

I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/p...22297261160831
It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?

Tom

BTW, OM is the prefix for Slovakia, not Poland (which is SP).

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:52:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


The Viper picture is dated 2010, perhaps the number got recycled.

Where does one actually lookup the history for that registration?

I don't think so; OM-M9xx is the registration series used by Viper Aircraft. OM-M901 was displayed recently at an exposition:
https://www.tomarkaero.com/en/34-pre...ratislava.html

Tom

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 10:20:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
I'm expecting my GP15 to be at least a month delayed.

Huh? Say WHAT? When was delivery originally promised to you?

The following applies regardless of whether one discusses GP or other vendors.
I really do wish GP the best, might even have ordered one except I already
have too many electric-powered gliders (maybe someday I'll get it flying again,
after most recent failure in March, after repairing prior failure last fall).
Anyway...

Eric, you were an engineer, right?
When I was just a baby engineer (IIRC 1973, working in Brussels),
my boss taught me about the projected-delay curve.
Presumably you were similarly taught?

A projected-delay curve is very simple.
Y-axis is projected delay (say, expected months to completion).
X-axis is just time (say in months).
A perfectly planned project gives a line descending at 45 degrees,
so that the projected delay reaches 0 (completion) at the time originally planned.

As an engineer, I would do projected delay curves on:
- time promised til first promised customer delivery
- time promised til my delivery

Eric, you've had some training and exposure to finance, no??
So, calculate or estimate to 10%-20%:
- amount of cash taken in by company from deposits
- cost (break-even) to pay for fabrication of a glider
Now ask or find out from public financial records their approximate cash-on-hand.
Does it permit producing prepaid orders?

Eric, you were an engineer, right?
So you know things go wrong. 'cause, ya-know, "How hard can it be?" precedes...
Now, given that things go wrong, as engineers we plan for that right?
That means designing in adequate diagnostic basic indicators (blinky LEDs)
and logs, easily accessible by the customer.
Applies to all kinds of products, right?
When first Antares showed up and the logs weren't accessible,
I added a feature so customer could easily pull logs onto USB stick.
At least the logs already EXISTED, but the factory failed to make this easy.
Now, how come its not immediately determined what happened to the first GP delivery?

Again, I wish GP all the best.
But when one asks these questions, its a serious thing.
I saw first-hand when I did the OSTIV talk, pilots looking annoyed,
and not raising their hands when I asked how many had a particular problem,
when I could see many in the audience I knew had had the problem.
Guys, I'm not calling your wife ugly.
Heaven forbid, I'm not even calling your girlfriend ugly!
Brand-loyalty is one thing, but this is a bit silly.

Eric, would you care to do the above analysis and share it?
Its a serious question and NOT an attack.
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Tell Jan I think she's cute ;-)


* The projected-delay curve has been approximately re-invented numerous
times with trendy names like "burn-down chart"...
** Typical decently-managed projects show projected-delay curves with
more-or-less constant slope worse than 45 degrees. That tells you the
estimation process is consistently flawed by the same degree, but things
are NOT wildly out of control.
**B) Some decades ago, a buddy was working at a large aerospace co on
a large DARPA/NASA funded project. He complained to me about unrealistic
estimates, and I explained above. He then posted and regularly updated a
projected-delay graph outside his cubicle, for each major milestone,
all showing a rather depressing but flat curve. Senior management got wind
and dressed him down and demanded he remove it! Big Offense!!!
Right before project was cancelled for repeated budget overruns.
*** When projected-delay line flattens or increases, you are truly F'd.

Eric,
Why do you care what these guys think anyway?

It was your decision to make the investment and you sound like you knew the potential risks going in.

So who gives a ****e what anyone of the above detractors think?

In the end only time will tell if you made a good decision. You've indicated based on your experience you are currently ok continuing to wait. And as it's your money it's really no one else's business, even if it doesn't work out.

Certainly some parts of the more rational portions of the discussion above are worthwhile to caution other potential investors.

Personally I hope things do move forward for you. It would be great to see this glider get into production. However only time will tell, everything is pure speculation.