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My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders



 
 
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  #51  
Old June 29th 20, 07:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

That's also my understanding. It probably is no problem in the USA if the FAA accepts them in the experimental category.

However, in Europe, that means you can't cross a border with them, unless you get an exemption from the other country.

About certification, the EASA exemption rule states:

8. A Member State may decide to exempt from this Regulation the design, production, maintenance and operation activities in respect of one or more of the following categories of aircraft:

(a) aeroplanes, other than unmanned aeroplanes, which have no more than two seats, measurable stall speed or minimum steady flight speed in landing configuration not exceeding 45 knots calibrated air speed and a maximum take-off mass (MTOM), as recorded by the Member State, of no more than 600 kg for aeroplanes not intended to be operated on water or 650 kg for aeroplanes intended to be operated on water;

(b) helicopters, other than unmanned helicopters, which have no more than two seats and a MTOM, as recorded by the Member State, of no more than 600 kg for helicopters not intended to be operated on water or 650 kg for helicopters intended to be operated on water;

(c) sailplanes, other than unmanned sailplanes, and powered sailplanes, other than unmanned powered sailplanes, which have no more than two seats and a MTOM, as recorded by the Member State, of no more than 600 kg.

The funny thing here is that there is a minimum stall speed for aeroplanes, but not for gliders...

In reality, not all European states are considering all the abovementioned aircraft as exempted from certification. France, for example, is more restrictive than Germany in this respect, with more stringent limits for MTM, because the ultralight movement in France fears to lose the very supple system they have (no national certification, no medical, possibility to land and take-off anywhere with simple authorization from the landowner, etc.)

Germany on the contrary has much more restrictive national rules on the use of ultralights, with a (limited) national certification and no taking off outside of an airfield, but I believe they apply these certification exemptions to their full extent, at least for ultralight aeroplanes and helicopters. I'm not so sure about the pure gliders. So you have no guarantee whatsoever to be able to use such an uncertified glider outside your own country in Europe.

Now if you live in a big country, that is perhaps no problem for you. But I live in Belgium. The downwind leg for my airfield is over French territory....
  #52  
Old June 29th 20, 08:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Monday, 29 June 2020 21:38:42 UTC+3, wrote:
That's also my understanding. It probably is no problem in the USA if the FAA accepts them in the experimental category.

However, in Europe, that means you can't cross a border with them, unless you get an exemption from the other country.


Our ultralights fly all over EU. You have as many rules as you have nations.
  #53  
Old June 30th 20, 01:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders


Our ultralights fly all over EU. You have as many rules as you have nations.


When EASA came into being, you ended up with not the AVERAGE of the member nation's regulations, but the SUM of the member nation's regulations.
  #54  
Old June 30th 20, 03:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 12:03:53 PM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:37:42 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 3:55:40 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Never mind.


Excellent advice for yourself.


Seriously you and Daryl K. MUST be related....


Seriously, you're full of ****...
  #55  
Old June 30th 20, 03:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 11:11:44 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Fair enough, although, I am accepting your bit of unsolicited life advice with a tad more humility than you afforded me. Thus my original point. Tom, it is not too late to calm that rather prickly manner of treating all you encounter.
Good day to you


JSC, I call em as I see em.
  #56  
Old June 30th 20, 04:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

kinsell wrote on 6/29/2020 7:58 AM:
On 6/29/20 8:08 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 6/29/2020 3:17 AM:
As far as I know, there is no European type certificate for any of the GP
Gliders. I was unable to find neither GP Gliders nor the parent company Peszke
as an aircraft manufacturer when looking in the EASA certification database. No
TCDS - Type Certificate Data Sheet - available. Some or all of these gliders
may fall under the (recently modified) ultralight category, where no
certification is mandatory.

Type certificates aren't required to import a glider in the US. I had my ASH 26E
in March 1995, licensed in the Experimental category; it was about two years
later that they received German certification. Ditto for the ASW 27, also a new
glider at the time. Other countries have different rules, but gliders are
produced, sold, and delivered before receiving certification.


The November Soaring article claimed two GP-14's had been delivered to Italy.* Any
word on how those are doing?

I haven't heard anything, but then US focus is entirely on the GP15.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #57  
Old June 30th 20, 07:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 03:16:57 UTC+3, wrote:
Our ultralights fly all over EU. You have as many rules as you have nations.


When EASA came into being, you ended up with not the AVERAGE of the member nation's regulations, but the SUM of the member nation's regulations.


TMostly true, but again, EASA does not regulate UL category aircraft (close to US LSA) in any way. They are under national regulation of member states.
  #58  
Old August 16th 20, 02:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jld
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Posts: 35
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

I did not look at this group for a while (busy flying :-) ), and I am surprised at the amount of discussions and in some cases approximate information concerning the GP15.

From all info provided by GP multiple times, no EASA certification is planned for the GP15. It is going to be registered as UL in key EU countries (and experimental in US).
As far as crossing EU borders with UL, some countries indeed require a permit to fly for foreign UL but that is usually very easy to obtain. As a reminder, which is also applicable to certified gliders, the rules also say that it is necessary to file a flight plan when crossing borders!

Concerning GP15 approval as UL in EU, some countries like Germany have requirements concerning ground/flight tests which are rather time and budget consuming (you can't take the business risk to duplicate these tests). It is therefore logical that GP is eventually converging toward a single stable configuration that can meet approval in all targeted countries.
The haters are going to say that GP should have thought about it sooner but the reality is that the rules in EU, concerning below 600 kg aircraft (UL), have changed while GP was in the middle of the making of their gliders!
GP will now be able to rationalize/industrialize their production tools which shall allow increased production rates, reduce the risk of orphan configurations and help them become profitable (if the later does not happen that would be the end of the story anyway).

For people looking for an electric motor glider with motorized performance close to the gas burning versions, GP15 is the only game in town.
GP is on a virtuous circle: reducing weight and surface while increasing aspect ratio!
This makes possible the design of a high performance electric power plant for a total weight (motor/controller/batteries) similar to gas powered powerplant. This is what GP has done.
One side benefit of the lower power motor, coupled with rather large battery capacity, is that it reduces the max current seen by each battery cell. This allows reduced temperature excursion, simplified temperature management and reduced risks of temperature runaway.

We all would enjoy better communication from GP but, let's be honest, the well established companies are not better while taking much less risks than GP.

I feel GP is on the right path and the family is doing its best to manage the situation, COVID did not help. There has been too many delays, especially for the people who have placed orders 2 or 3 years ago, but they have a unique great design which will become a game changer, we hope pretty soon!



  #59  
Old August 16th 20, 07:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:06:14 AM UTC-7, jld wrote:
I did not look at this group for a while (busy flying :-) ), and I am surprised at the amount of discussions and in some cases approximate information concerning the GP15.

From all info provided by GP multiple times, no EASA certification is planned for the GP15. It is going to be registered as UL in key EU countries (and experimental in US).
As far as crossing EU borders with UL, some countries indeed require a permit to fly for foreign UL but that is usually very easy to obtain. As a reminder, which is also applicable to certified gliders, the rules also say that it is necessary to file a flight plan when crossing borders!

Concerning GP15 approval as UL in EU, some countries like Germany have requirements concerning ground/flight tests which are rather time and budget consuming (you can't take the business risk to duplicate these tests). It is therefore logical that GP is eventually converging toward a single stable configuration that can meet approval in all targeted countries.
The haters are going to say that GP should have thought about it sooner but the reality is that the rules in EU, concerning below 600 kg aircraft (UL), have changed while GP was in the middle of the making of their gliders!
GP will now be able to rationalize/industrialize their production tools which shall allow increased production rates, reduce the risk of orphan configurations and help them become profitable (if the later does not happen that would be the end of the story anyway).

For people looking for an electric motor glider with motorized performance close to the gas burning versions, GP15 is the only game in town.
GP is on a virtuous circle: reducing weight and surface while increasing aspect ratio!
This makes possible the design of a high performance electric power plant for a total weight (motor/controller/batteries) similar to gas powered powerplant. This is what GP has done.
One side benefit of the lower power motor, coupled with rather large battery capacity, is that it reduces the max current seen by each battery cell. This allows reduced temperature excursion, simplified temperature management and reduced risks of temperature runaway.

We all would enjoy better communication from GP but, let's be honest, the well established companies are not better while taking much less risks than GP.

I feel GP is on the right path and the family is doing its best to manage the situation, COVID did not help. There has been too many delays, especially for the people who have placed orders 2 or 3 years ago, but they have a unique great design which will become a game changer, we hope pretty soon!


600 kg is considered to be an ultralight in the EU? WOW! In the US a powered ultralight is limited to 115 kg (254 lb). This is the weight of an LSA (1320 lbs):

To be considered an ultralight vehicle, a hang glider must weigh less than 155 pounds; while a powered vehicle must weigh less than 254 pounds; is limited to 5 U.S. gallons of fuel; must have a maximum speed of not more than 55 knots; and must have a poweroff stall speed of no more than 24 knots.
https://www.usua.org/Rules/faa103.ht...n%2024%20knots.

In fact, there are no universal EU regulations governing ultralight aircraft - each country has its own regulations (or none at all):
https://ul-center.com/2016/03/09/ult...t-information/

More guidance on this regulatory issue is in:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20Nov%2010.pdf

But it contains this confusing statement:

Gliders without an engine enabling self-launch if 450kgs (two-seat) or 300kgs
(single-seat) are within the scope of Community regulations. Gliders with engines
enabling self-launch and which are 450 / 300kgs MTOM microlight limits are with
the scope of Community regulations.

GP Gliders lists the MTOW of the GP-15 on their website at 470 kg (who knows what the final number will be), putting it well into the EU regulatory claws by 170 kg. So I don't see how they can fly underneath the EU regulatory radar as an ultralight without losing 170 kg of weight, which seems highly unlikely.

Most gliders imported into the US in the experimental category have a type certificate in the EU. Will the FAA be more hesitant in issuing experimental airworthiness certificates to gliders that have not undergone this certification testing? We will just have to wait and see how this unfolds. To date, I do not know of any GP-15 that has been certified anywhere, although the prototype displayed at the convention had a Slovakian registration number which I have previously shown was assigned to another aircraft. Some have said that that aircraft "could" have been deregistered and, then, reassigned to the GP-15, but have produced exactly zero proof that that had occurred..

You imply that I am a "GP hater." I take exception with this characterization - I don't "hate" GP any more or less than any other startup aircraft manufacturer. Maybe they will ultimately deliver the goods they have promised, and maybe they won't. But I do believe that anyone putting down $105,000 on an unfinished glider deserves to be told the whole truth. And "feeling" that they are on the right path does not count as truth.

Tom
  #60  
Old August 16th 20, 07:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:06:14 AM UTC-7, jld wrote:
I did not look at this group for a while (busy flying :-) ), and I am surprised at the amount of discussions and in some cases approximate information concerning the GP15.

From all info provided by GP multiple times, no EASA certification is planned for the GP15. It is going to be registered as UL in key EU countries (and experimental in US).
As far as crossing EU borders with UL, some countries indeed require a permit to fly for foreign UL but that is usually very easy to obtain. As a reminder, which is also applicable to certified gliders, the rules also say that it is necessary to file a flight plan when crossing borders!

Concerning GP15 approval as UL in EU, some countries like Germany have requirements concerning ground/flight tests which are rather time and budget consuming (you can't take the business risk to duplicate these tests). It is therefore logical that GP is eventually converging toward a single stable configuration that can meet approval in all targeted countries.
The haters are going to say that GP should have thought about it sooner but the reality is that the rules in EU, concerning below 600 kg aircraft (UL), have changed while GP was in the middle of the making of their gliders!
GP will now be able to rationalize/industrialize their production tools which shall allow increased production rates, reduce the risk of orphan configurations and help them become profitable (if the later does not happen that would be the end of the story anyway).

For people looking for an electric motor glider with motorized performance close to the gas burning versions, GP15 is the only game in town.
GP is on a virtuous circle: reducing weight and surface while increasing aspect ratio!
This makes possible the design of a high performance electric power plant for a total weight (motor/controller/batteries) similar to gas powered powerplant. This is what GP has done.
One side benefit of the lower power motor, coupled with rather large battery capacity, is that it reduces the max current seen by each battery cell. This allows reduced temperature excursion, simplified temperature management and reduced risks of temperature runaway.

We all would enjoy better communication from GP but, let's be honest, the well established companies are not better while taking much less risks than GP.

I feel GP is on the right path and the family is doing its best to manage the situation, COVID did not help. There has been too many delays, especially for the people who have placed orders 2 or 3 years ago, but they have a unique great design which will become a game changer, we hope pretty soon!

600 kg is considered to be an ultralight in the EU? WOW! In the US a powered ultralight is limited to 115 kg (254 lb). This is the weight of an LSA (1320 lbs):

To be considered an ultralight vehicle, a hang glider must weigh less than 155 pounds; while a powered vehicle must weigh less than 254 pounds; is limited to 5 U.S. gallons of fuel; must have a maximum speed of not more than 55 knots; and must have a poweroff stall speed of no more than 24 knots.
https://www.usua.org/Rules/faa103.ht...n%2024%20knots.

In fact, there are no universal EU regulations governing ultralight aircraft - each country has its own regulations (or none at all):
https://ul-center.com/2016/03/09/ult...t-information/

More guidance on this regulatory issue is in:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20Nov%2010.pdf

But it contains this confusing statement:

Gliders without an engine enabling self-launch if 450kgs (two-seat) or 300kgs
(single-seat) are within the scope of Community regulations. Gliders with engines
enabling self-launch and which are 450 / 300kgs MTOM microlight limits are with
the scope of Community regulations.

GP Gliders lists the MTOW of the GP-15 on their website at 470 kg (who knows what the final number will be), putting it well into the EU regulatory claws by 170 kg. So I don't see how they can fly underneath the EU regulatory radar as an ultralight without losing 170 kg of weight, which seems highly unlikely.

Most gliders imported into the US in the experimental category have a type certificate in the EU. Will the FAA be more hesitant in issuing experimental airworthiness certificates to gliders that have not undergone this certification testing? We will just have to wait and see how this unfolds. To date, I do not know of any GP-15 that has been certified anywhere, although the prototype displayed at the convention had a Slovakian registration number which I have previously shown was assigned to another aircraft. Some have said that that aircraft "could" have been deregistered and, then, reassigned to the GP-15, but have produced exactly zero proof that that had occurred.

You imply that I am a "GP hater." I take exception with this characterization - I don't "hate" GP any more or less than any other startup aircraft manufacturer. Maybe they will ultimately deliver the goods they have promised, and maybe they won't. But I do believe that anyone putting down $105,000 on an unfinished glider deserves to be told the whole truth. And "feeling" that they are on the right path does not count as truth.

Tom


Right after posting this I found that the EU has, indeed, raised the ultralight weight limit to 600 kg:

https://flightdesign.com/easa-new-ba...g-ul-aircraft/

Tom
 




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