Opinions on Cessna 340, 414 and 421

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:11:44 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

I don't think anything fits all those requirements.


Those are best case scenario. I figure I will have to give up one or
more things. But I may as well lay all the cards on the table, and
hope for the best hand.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

I think that you need to start with the budget and see what is availible.
I'm not sure what the relevance of some of the other items is.

What is magical about 200kts? Why do you care if it will go fast at low
altitudes? If you are going any distance, you will be high and if you are
only going a short distance a faster cruising speed won't matter much.
Often, making an intersection departure will save more time than and
additional 20kts. 190kts or 210kts won't make much difference on even the
longest flight.

Why do you want a potty? They stink and YOU have to empty them. I have had
potty in my airplane for 6 yrs and it has never been used.

Why does it need to be "cabin class" unless it is eight seats or greater?

Your specs add up to a big, heavy airplane with a lot of frontal area. It
is going to require big, powerful, thirsty engines to pull it through the
air. All this is going to cost multiples of the proposed budget.

You may have great reasons for every spec but you need to narrow it down
quite a bit.

Mike
MU-2


"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:11:44 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

I don't think anything fits all those requirements.


Those are best case scenario. I figure I will have to give up one or
more things. But I may as well lay all the cards on the table, and
hope for the best hand.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:11:44 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

I don't think anything fits all those requirements.


Those are best case scenario. I figure I will have to give up one or
more things. But I may as well lay all the cards on the table, and
hope for the best hand.

The one that'll kick it into the higher price bracket is the potty, since
only the 421 has that feature available.

On 31-Mar-2004, john szpara wrote:

A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Do any Commanders fit the profile?


Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue isn't
purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any
pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a LOT
of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your
bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a week
(and several thousand dollars) every year for recurrent training?

--
-Elliott Drucker

Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue isn't
purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any
pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a LOT
of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your
bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a week

I'm figuring $20-30k/year for 100 hours flying. Extra money would be
available for the (inevitable) unexpected. I won't even attempt to buy
unless the revenue stream is in place for it. I would also be using it
partly for my business.

(and several thousand dollars) every year for recurrent training?

Absolutely. I'm figuring one or two trips a year to Flightsafety.
Recurring training will be a given. I don't want to be a hack, weekend
pilot. I take it very seriously.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

Those trips to FlightSafety will eat up a lot of that 20-30K per year
budget. It is a real commitment once you get an airplane that requires
simulator training unless you are fortunate enough to live near the sim
facility. If you go for two days at a time it will take at least four
including getting there and back. Twice a year is eight days which is a lot
of *estra* time to carve out of your annual schedule.

Mike
MU-2

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...

Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue
isn't
purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any
pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a
LOT
of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your
bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a
week

I'm figuring $20-30k/year for 100 hours flying. Extra money would be
available for the (inevitable) unexpected. I won't even attempt to buy
unless the revenue stream is in place for it. I would also be using it
partly for my business.

(and several thousand dollars) every year for recurrent training?

Absolutely. I'm figuring one or two trips a year to Flightsafety.
Recurring training will be a given. I don't want to be a hack, weekend
pilot. I take it very seriously.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:54:35 GMT, john szpara
wrote:


Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue isn't
purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any
pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a LOT
of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your
bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a week

I'm figuring $20-30k/year for 100 hours flying. Extra money would be
available for the (inevitable) unexpected. I won't even attempt to buy
unless the revenue stream is in place for it. I would also be using it
partly for my business.

John,

You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And
you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In
the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll
keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground.

Seriously though, $20-30k for 100hrs/year works out to $200-300/hr.
It is impossible to own/operate a 421 for $200/hr. The GTSIO520s burn
25gph (each) in cruise. Given the $3/gallon prices we have in Chicago
- that's $150/hr right there.

A rebuilt GTSIO520 is $45k, assuming it goes 2000 hrs before the
rebuild that's $22.50/hr per engine. So another $45/hr. Plus, if the
engines are mid-time, you need to be able to make up the 'already
spent' hours in the overhaul fund. This also does not include the
costs to install the new engine or remove the old one.

Most of these engines will require 1 (if not 2) top overhauls to make
it to 2000 hrs. That's another 10-20k per engine per TOH.

Hell, even oil changes on these things are serious business.
Basically a case of oil per engine for each change, plus however much
burn they have. Figure $100 per oil change, and $50 for burned oil
between changes.

Tiedown/Hangar costs are variable, but it is my opinion that a
high-performance/complex aircraft should really be in a heated/climate
controlled hangar. The wind/weather are really hard on planes sitting
outside, and when things break on a 421, they are expensive. Even so,
let's assume that a tie-down is available for $600/year or $6/hr.

Insurance will be another heap. My low-time ME quotes for a $140k
Seneca II with $1M smooth ranged from $5.5k to $12k. I'm sure a 421
with 8 seats and a higher hull value will be much worse. Let's say
you can get insurance for $10k/year which would still be $100/hr.

So a rough estimate per hour
Fuel: $150
Oil: $6
Eng Reserve: $45
Tiedown $6
Insurance: $100
------------------------------------
That's close to $300 and it does not include annual inspections or
misc maintenance costs.

-Nathan