IFR in the 1930's

I heard someplace through the years in some hanger flying that a
pencil was used in IFR in the very early days. Can't remember how it
was used but might be something like it was hung from a string in
cockpit???? Maybe some real old, old, old timers remember some to the
stories about the time the AAC was tasked to fly the Airmail?

Anybody old enough to have used a pencil instead of a gyro
would be long dead. It doesn't work. The pencil could be
hanging precisely straight towards the floor while you are
in a death spiral.

~Paul

Paul

Yes but the airspeed would show an increase. Also the 'Whiskey
Compass' would show a turn. Pencil would show if you were coordinated
or not. You would have to fly with all the instrunents availabale on
partial panel G

I just don't remember the hanger flying stories and said it was
somethng (could have been a pencil on a string?????????) or some other
crazy thing that we wouldn't do now.

Your right about people actualy flying IFR in those days (long gone)
but the stories were passed down in 'Hanger flying for years
afterward.

Will see if any lurkers show up with a story about how the early birds
flew IFR with no or minimum instrunents.

I've looked via Google and havn't found anything that I remember yet.

Big John


On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 09:22:12 GMT, "Paul Mennen"
wrote:

I heard someplace through the years in some hanger flying that a
pencil was used in IFR in the very early days. Can't remember how it
was used but might be something like it was hung from a string in
cockpit???? Maybe some real old, old, old timers remember some to the
stories about the time the AAC was tasked to fly the Airmail?

Anybody old enough to have used a pencil instead of a gyro
would be long dead. It doesn't work. The pencil could be
hanging precisely straight towards the floor while you are
in a death spiral.

~Paul

Hate to sound dense but how do you fly an NDB approach without an ADF?

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
nk.net...
As a geezer who learned to fly "blind" with needle, ball and airspeed I
can
say that in a slow, stable aircraft, that those are enough for rather
precise instrument flight. I can still fly a respectable partial panel
NDB
approach with just those instruments + an altimeter. (BTW, I HATE a turn
coordinator.)

For me an attitude indicator and a DG are just icing on the cake.

Bill Daniels

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
...
You need the turn needle, ball, and airspeed at bare minumum.
And you'll have to be sharp to fly IMC under those conditions.

If I were planning to fly like this, I'd equip the thing
properly. Make it easier to stay alive...


Richard

Dick wrote:

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.

"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which
instruments
and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if
caught
in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball
&
tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the
venturi
or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and
wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida

"Steve House" wrote:
Hate to sound dense but how do you fly an NDB approach without an ADF?

Old answer: RDF. At least in the marine world, this was the predecessor
to the ADF. I'm assuming this was true in the aviation world too?
Stands for Radio Direction Finder (as opposed to Automatic Direction
Finder). Same principle, the difference being with the RDF, you have to
manually turn the antenna to find the strongest signal. The workload
involved pretty much requires a dedicated radio operator or navigator.

New answer: GPS

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Steve House" wrote:
Hate to sound dense but how do you fly an NDB approach without an ADF?

Old answer: RDF. At least in the marine world, this was the predecessor
to the ADF. I'm assuming this was true in the aviation world too?
Stands for Radio Direction Finder (as opposed to Automatic Direction
Finder). Same principle, the difference being with the RDF, you have to
manually turn the antenna to find the strongest signal. The workload
involved pretty much requires a dedicated radio operator or navigator.

New answer: GPS

Actually you turn the antenna for the weakest signal.

A little flip, really sad but mostly true.

Del Rawlins wrote:

On 29 Aug 2003 01:15 PM, Dick posted the following:


Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which
instruments and their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail
pilots flew if caught in IFR conditions.



Mostly, they flew into the ground.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

I can see emulating an NDB approach with a GPS, flying the same pathway etc.
but for something to be a "real" NDB approach wouldn't you need some device,
an actual ADF or a manual DF antenna rig, that actually receives the radio
beacon signal and gives you a bearing to it? A GPS may give you a bearing
to a waypoint that has the same coordinates as the beacon antenna and/or
guide you over the same path you'd follow with the NDB approach, but unless
it's actually picking up the radio beacon from the ground station would it
count as a true NDB approach?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Steve House" wrote:
Hate to sound dense but how do you fly an NDB approach without an ADF?

Old answer: RDF. At least in the marine world, this was the predecessor
to the ADF. I'm assuming this was true in the aviation world too?
Stands for Radio Direction Finder (as opposed to Automatic Direction
Finder). Same principle, the difference being with the RDF, you have to
manually turn the antenna to find the strongest signal. The workload
involved pretty much requires a dedicated radio operator or navigator.

New answer: GPS

They flew very effectively on the Adcock range, which was set up across the
nation. This was a aural navigation system in which all that was necessary
was a tunable low freq radio, a watch, compas. and chart (some knowledge of
Morris code
"ADCOCK RANGE - National radio navigation system replaced after World War 2
by the omnirange system. It consisted of segmented quadrants broadcasting
Morse Code "A" (dot-dash) and "N" (dash-dot) signals in opposing quadrants
so that pilots could orient their position relative to a "beam" broadcasting
a steady tone, and a Morse Code station identifier. Using a "build-and-fade"
technique, a pilot could (ideally) pinpoint his location by the strength or
weakness of a signal"
look up adcock range on Goggle.DF was also available.
Bill
wrote in message
...
A little flip, really sad but mostly true.

Del Rawlins wrote:

On 29 Aug 2003 01:15 PM, Dick posted the following:


Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which
instruments and their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail
pilots flew if caught in IFR conditions.



Mostly, they flew into the ground.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

"William T Bartlett" wrote in message
. ..
They flew very effectively on the Adcock range, which was set up across
the
nation. This was a aural navigation system in which all that was necessary
was a tunable low freq radio, a watch, compas. and chart (some knowledge
of
Morris code
"ADCOCK RANGE - National radio navigation system replaced after World War
2
by the omnirange system. It consisted of segmented quadrants broadcasting
Morse Code "A" (dot-dash) and "N" (dash-dot) signals in opposing quadrants
so that pilots could orient their position relative to a "beam"
broadcasting
a steady tone, and a Morse Code station identifier. Using a
"build-and-fade"
technique, a pilot could (ideally) pinpoint his location by the strength
or
weakness of a signal"
look up adcock range on Goggle.DF was also available.
Bill

That came long after the original airmail pilots and did absolutely nothing
to help them keep the dirty side down. Knowing where you are doesn't mean
much if you don't know which way is up. One tool they did use if caught on
top was to drop a parachute flare and follow it down through the soup hoping
they broke out before hitting the ground. If all else failed they hit the
silk.



wrote in message
...
A little flip, really sad but mostly true.

Del Rawlins wrote:

On 29 Aug 2003 01:15 PM, Dick posted the following:


Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which
instruments and their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail
pilots flew if caught in IFR conditions.



Mostly, they flew into the ground.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:49:50 GMT, "William T Bartlett"
wrote:

They flew very effectively on the Adcock range, which was set up across the
nation. This was a aural navigation system in which all that was necessary
was a tunable low freq radio, a watch, compas. and chart (some knowledge of
Morris code

big snip for obvious reasons

look up adcock range on Goggle.DF was also available.
Bill
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bill..

Morris code?
Yeah, right.

Like Del said.....
They mostly flew into the ground.


Barnyard BOb - pre VOR pilot
==================================


Del Rawlins wrote:

On 29 Aug 2003 01:15 PM, Dick posted the following:


Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which
instruments and their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail
pilots flew if caught in IFR conditions.



Mostly, they flew into the ground.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/