Puchaz spin - now wearing 'chutes

The discussion of wearing parachutes is an interesting one. Parachutes are
cheap insurance and, when one is needed, nothing else will quite do the job.
So, why aren't they universally worn?

In a word, weight. The available two seaters, for the most part, have
weight limitations that almost preclude wearing 'chutes. Two 17 pound
'chutes rob 34 pounds from what may be only 380 pounds of allowable cockpit
load. The choice becomes, wear 'chutes and fly over gross weight or leave
them behind. In the USA the choice is almost always to leave them on the
ground when flying two seaters. Pilots of single seaters choose to wear
'chutes far more frequently since the payload permits it.

Requiring the wearing of 'chutes will put a lot of people into violation of
the C of A or rule them out of the sport entirely - neither is an acceptable
option.

The choices a

1. Make humans lighter - working on that.
2. Make 'chutes lighter - little more to be gained here.
3. Make glider manufacturers build two seaters with greater payload.

Number 3 is the real problem. I suggest we insist on at least 200 Kilos
minimum certifiable payload after allowances for oxygen and avionics.

Bill Daniels

I don't understand why wearing chutes should be problematical
in the States and not in the UK where they are almost
universally worn. I wouldn't ever fly a glider without
a chute I had complete confidence in and, as far as
I can recall, I haven't seen anyone get in a glider
without a chute for years.

John Galloway

At 18:36 08 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
The discussion of wearing parachutes is an interesting
one. Parachutes are
cheap insurance and, when one is needed, nothing else
will quite do the job.
So, why aren't they universally worn?

In a word, weight. The available two seaters, for
the most part, have
weight limitations that almost preclude wearing 'chutes.
Two 17 pound
'chutes rob 34 pounds from what may be only 380 pounds
of allowable cockpit
load. The choice becomes, wear 'chutes and fly over
gross weight or leave
them behind. In the USA the choice is almost always
to leave them on the
ground when flying two seaters. Pilots of single seaters
choose to wear
'chutes far more frequently since the payload permits
it.

Requiring the wearing of 'chutes will put a lot of
people into violation of
the C of A or rule them out of the sport entirely -
neither is an acceptable
option.

The choices a

1. Make humans lighter - working on that.
2. Make 'chutes lighter - little more to be gained
here.
3. Make glider manufacturers build two seaters with
greater payload.

Number 3 is the real problem. I suggest we insist
on at least 200 Kilos
minimum certifiable payload after allowances for oxygen
and avionics.

Bill Daniels

"John Galloway" wrote in message
...
I don't understand why wearing chutes should be problematical
in the States and not in the UK where they are almost
universally worn. I wouldn't ever fly a glider without
a chute I had complete confidence in and, as far as
I can recall, I haven't seen anyone get in a glider
without a chute for years.

John Galloway

So, John, how do you handle the weight issue in a situation where the
occupants + 'chutes will be over the allowable gross weight for the glider?
Do you send the overweight passenger/student home or do you fly over weight?

I don't like flying without 'chutes, but I'm also nervous about flying over
weight.

Bill Daniels

I needed to do a check flight in 2002 with a coach, Simon Adlard. We
needed to use the K13, because the check was to include stall/spinning, and
the other gliders available to us at the particular club were K21s which
were not suitable for the exercises we needed to do.

We were overweight for the K13, so we did not do the flight. It did not
cross our minds to fly without parachutes.

I therefore went to Bicester to fly with Simon in the BGA Puchacz '99', we
also used an RAFGSA K13 'R88' which had been beautifully totally restored by
Dave Bullock, and had newly approved placards allowing heavier cockpit
weights.

One of the exercises, done in the K13, was a stall in a steep thermal turn.
It did this very well with no pre-stall symptoms other than control
movements and position, it broke straight into a steep diving spin entry,
very convincing!
This exercise may be found on page 19-5 of the BGA Instructors' Manual
Second edition, title "Spin off a Steep or Thermal Turn".

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...


"John Galloway" wrote in message
...

I don't understand why wearing chutes should be problematical in the
States and not in the UK where they are almost universally worn.
I wouldn't ever fly a glider without a chute I had complete confidence
in and, as far as I can recall, I haven't seen anyone get in a glider
without a chute for years.

John Galloway


So, John, how do you handle the weight issue in a situation where the
occupants + 'chutes will be over the allowable gross weight for the
glider?
Do you send the overweight passenger/student home or do you fly over
weight?

I don't like flying without 'chutes, but I'm also nervous about flying
over weight.

Bill Daniels

Chutes are mandatory at my club as well. If you cant meet the weight
placard limits you don't fly - its as simple as that. I have seen several
people turned away. I think most British clubs put a limit on dual trial
flights of 16 stone for the front seat. It helps that we dont allow our AEI
pilots to eat for a week beforehand G

I am surprised that in such a litigious country as the US any club would
even consider it.

Stephen Haley

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...

"John Galloway" wrote in message
...
I don't understand why wearing chutes should be problematical
in the States and not in the UK where they are almost
universally worn. I wouldn't ever fly a glider without
a chute I had complete confidence in and, as far as
I can recall, I haven't seen anyone get in a glider
without a chute for years.

John Galloway

So, John, how do you handle the weight issue in a situation where the
occupants + 'chutes will be over the allowable gross weight for the
glider?
Do you send the overweight passenger/student home or do you fly over
weight?

I don't like flying without 'chutes, but I'm also nervous about flying
over
weight.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

In a word, weight.

Er...price. $50 every 120 days = $100 per soaring season =
$1000 over ten years.

And rigs that get old get hard to find someone to pack them.
And there are chute AD's. $$$$s to be legal...

I saw a place in AZ, USA that does rig training for $525.
Assuming the test is $250 and materials $250, maybe one is better
off getting the license and just doing it oneself...cheaper
in the long run...

http://www.skydivemarana.com/rigging.htm

In article ,
Dave Houlton wrote:
This parachute discussion has me thinking about the rocket-deployed
chutes we used to have for hang gliding, and the BRS systems now in
Cirrus (Cirrii?) and small Cessnas. Probably no improvement w.r.t
weight or cost considerations, but for convenience, comfort, and "always
there when you need it" they would seem ideal. I don't actually know
the repack requirements, but I would guess they're annually or even longer.

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

I've flown a powered ultralight with one. Additionally,
the whole ultralight weight issue excludes safety devices.
From what I understand, you may add 70# to your legal
empty weight if you add a BRS type chute.

So you can actually GAIN legal empty weight by adding
a chute. Still cuts into gross wt though...

I've read the stats and these things have a remarkable
save rate, and at VERY low altitudes (some below 300 ft).

This parachute discussion has me thinking about the rocket-deployed
chutes we used to have for hang gliding, and the BRS systems now in
Cirrus (Cirrii?) and small Cessnas. Probably no improvement w.r.t
weight or cost considerations, but for convenience, comfort, and "always
there when you need it" they would seem ideal. I don't actually know
the repack requirements, but I would guess they're annually or even longer.

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Dave


Mark James Boyd wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:

In a word, weight.


Er...price. $50 every 120 days = $100 per soaring season =
$1000 over ten years.

And rigs that get old get hard to find someone to pack them.
And there are chute AD's. $$$$s to be legal...

I saw a place in AZ, USA that does rig training for $525.
Assuming the test is $250 and materials $250, maybe one is better
off getting the license and just doing it oneself...cheaper
in the long run...

http://www.skydivemarana.com/rigging.htm

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:11:03 -0700, Dave Houlton wrote:

This parachute discussion has me thinking about the rocket-deployed
chutes we used to have for hang gliding, and the BRS systems now in
Cirrus (Cirrii?) and small Cessnas. Probably no improvement w.r.t
weight or cost considerations, but for convenience, comfort, and "always
there when you need it" they would seem ideal. I don't actually know
the repack requirements, but I would guess they're annually or even longer.

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Ventus 2 and ASW-28. Just order the BRS when you buy one.
Bye
Andreas

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:11:03 -0700, Dave Houlton wrote:

This parachute discussion has me thinking about the rocket-deployed
chutes we used to have for hang gliding, and the BRS systems now in
Cirrus (Cirrii?) and small Cessnas. Probably no improvement w.r.t
weight or cost considerations, but for convenience, comfort, and "always
there when you need it" they would seem ideal. I don't actually know
the repack requirements, but I would guess they're annually or even longer.

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Dave

The whole ship chute concept is a bit of a worry. There you are in a
large heavy object with absolutely no control. With a personal chute
you do have steering on most rigs nowadays.

With a whole ship chute would it just ruin your day to have save and
then hit the high voltage lines, fall out of a tree, fall over a cliff
etc?

I think I would prefer a smaller chute to stabilise the glider so I
could get out or the NOAH system that one pilot has fitted to his LS8
in Oz(he's had one bailout)

Mike Borgelt