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Puchaz spin - now wearing 'chutes



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 11th 04, 05:10 AM
Mark James Boyd
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Mike Borgelt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:11:03 -0700, Dave Houlton wrote:

The whole ship chute concept is a bit of a worry. There you are in a
large heavy object with absolutely no control. With a personal chute
you do have steering on most rigs nowadays.

With a whole ship chute would it just ruin your day to have save and
then hit the high voltage lines, fall out of a tree, fall over a cliff
etc?

I think I would prefer a smaller chute to stabilise the glider so I
could get out or the NOAH system that one pilot has fitted to his LS8
in Oz(he's had one bailout)


Having one doesn't stop you from also wearing a
personal chute (ok, maybe we're really pushing weight
considerations now).

Whether the super low altitude capability and ease of use (vs
eject canopy, egress, pull handle) is good for you I guess depends.
From my experience doing a VERY poor job of hitting my landing spots
with a personal chute, I'd prefer the whole ship chute to a
personal one if cost and repack and weight were no factor...

I also like the idea of hitting the ground with all that fiberglass and
seat around me, instead of being lobotomized by a tree...
  #12  
Old February 11th 04, 03:28 PM
Bill Daniels
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"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4029b95f$1@darkstar...
Mike Borgelt wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:11:03 -0700, Dave Houlton wrote:

The whole ship chute concept is a bit of a worry. There you are in a
large heavy object with absolutely no control. With a personal chute
you do have steering on most rigs nowadays.

With a whole ship chute would it just ruin your day to have save and
then hit the high voltage lines, fall out of a tree, fall over a cliff
etc?

I think I would prefer a smaller chute to stabilise the glider so I
could get out or the NOAH system that one pilot has fitted to his LS8
in Oz(he's had one bailout)


Having one doesn't stop you from also wearing a
personal chute (ok, maybe we're really pushing weight
considerations now).

Whether the super low altitude capability and ease of use (vs
eject canopy, egress, pull handle) is good for you I guess depends.
From my experience doing a VERY poor job of hitting my landing spots
with a personal chute, I'd prefer the whole ship chute to a
personal one if cost and repack and weight were no factor...

I also like the idea of hitting the ground with all that fiberglass and
seat around me, instead of being lobotomized by a tree...


I will find the whole-glider 'chute idea a lot more attractive when I see
videos of test engineers riding them to the ground. So far, I think all the
manufacturers' tests had the test pilot leaving the test aircraft with a
personal 'chute after the aircraft 'chute opened - not too confidence
inspiring.

Bill Daniels

  #13  
Old February 11th 04, 03:43 PM
nafod40
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Bill Daniels wrote:
I will find the whole-glider 'chute idea a lot more attractive when I see
videos of test engineers riding them to the ground. So far, I think all the
manufacturers' tests had the test pilot leaving the test aircraft with a
personal 'chute after the aircraft 'chute opened - not too confidence
inspiring.


They've been given the real test...by an owner.

http://www.ulflyingmag.com/2003web/a...cirrusave.html


  #14  
Old February 11th 04, 04:12 PM
Mark James Boyd
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Bill Daniels wrote:


I've read that story before but the SR22 is not a glider. The SR22 gear
legs are designed to absorb a lot of the impact. I don't think a gliders'
hard gear will protect my spine when hitting a hard surface at 5 meters per
second.

I don't think even the manufacturers of these "whole-aircraft" chutes claim
that landing with one is safer than landing with a personal 'chute.


At 500 feet and below (typical ultralight altitude),
I'm gonna go out on a limb and
say they are DEFINITELY safer...from a midair in a gaggle at a bijillion
feet...
I dunno...


I'm with Mike Borgelt. Give me a NOAH or a tail 'chute to stabilize the
wreckage so I can depart with a personal 'chute.


Comparing a 3000# airplane to a 800# glider is apples and oranges
in my opinion.

And on a Sparrowhawk at 500#, I'd take a BRS in a heartbeat.

If you want real statistics on sink rate with chute, and
survivability, use the ultralight stats. There are many
reported saves...

And if you want to sink slower, just get a bigger chute...

900 lbs aircraft, canister, 135mph terminal, 6 yr repack,
25lbs weight, 2 ft long and 8" diameter...

www.ultralightnews.com/brs1/BRS2.HTML
has the weights and sizes...

"I have recieved no compensation for this posting and
am not in any way an employee or beneficiary of
BRS, although I flown aircraft using their
products. This is not to say, however, that I would
not accept a nice shiny new BRS if offered."
Yeah, RIGHT!! :P

  #15  
Old February 11th 04, 04:18 PM
Bill Daniels
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"nafod40" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
I will find the whole-glider 'chute idea a lot more attractive when I

see
videos of test engineers riding them to the ground. So far, I think all

the
manufacturers' tests had the test pilot leaving the test aircraft with a
personal 'chute after the aircraft 'chute opened - not too confidence
inspiring.


They've been given the real test...by an owner.

http://www.ulflyingmag.com/2003web/a...cirrusave.html


I've read that story before but the SR22 is not a glider. The SR22 gear
legs are designed to absorb a lot of the impact. I don't think a gliders'
hard gear will protect my spine when hitting a hard surface at 5 meters per
second.

I don't think even the manufacturers of these "whole-aircraft" chutes claim
that landing with one is safer than landing with a personal 'chute.

I'm with Mike Borgelt. Give me a NOAH or a tail 'chute to stabilize the
wreckage so I can depart with a personal 'chute.

Bill Daniels


  #16  
Old February 11th 04, 05:29 PM
Andrew Warbrick
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At 16:18 11 February 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
snip...

At 500 feet and below (typical ultralight altitude),

I'm gonna go out on a limb and
say they are DEFINITELY safer...from a midair in a
gaggle at a bijillion
feet...
I dunno...

It would remove the temptation to stay with the glider
and try to save it. You pull the bung and float down
on the BRS, rather than descend from 3000', have the
tailplane part company with the fin at 1000' and bunt
straight into the ground. And, before Mark claims that
scenario is far fetched, it has already happened with
fatal consequences.

I would have a BRS if it was possible to retrofit one
to my glider at a sensible price.

snip...


  #17  
Old February 11th 04, 05:31 PM
Jim Harper
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Dave Houlton wrote in message ...

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Dave


Hi, Dave.

The short answer to your question is, yep!
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...S_in_HP-16.htm

You can do a google search and find a long discussion regarding this
(initiated by me, that time...not the first discussion on this) from
around last Christmas (02).

Short form: I made the decision to put a BRS 1050 in my HP-16 because:

1. I am a big guy. Whilst I did fit in the glider with a parachute,
the ergonomics were challenging. Without a parachute, I am in
sumptious luxury.

2. I could. The glider is experimental, and changes are trivial. A
certificated glider would be much more difficult to do this in,
requiring a 337 which may or may not be possible (I'd bet on not).

3. While the cost was higher than a regular parachute (around $2500,
if memory serves, now around $2900) the weight penalty was not
significantly higher at 24 pounds for the 1050 softpack model I
bought. Repacks are sort of a push, given that they are quite
expensive, but only need done every 6 years.

I reached the decision after doing a moderately exhaustive search on
parachute saves in gliders. Basically, it looked to me like most
fatalities would not have been prevented by the usual open the canopy
and bail out...given the relative low altitude of most. Read the
thread for more on that, please. At any rate, I feel I can get a
canopy over me at anything above around 250 feet, perhaps lower, so I
have a better margin of safety than if I needed to open the canopy and
bail out...I think most believe that you need to start that at around
1500-2000 feet above ground.

I believe that my parachute will lower me relatively nose-down, and as
such, my legs will protect me to some extent on landing. I feel safer
surrounded by the aluminum and plexiglass than if I were on my own
under canopy, given that I'll likley not be descending into a prepared
drop zone, more likely trees or worse...and I have around 500 sport
parachute and military jumps, so I speak from knowledge there.

No, thank God, I have not had the opportunity to use it, and hope that
I never find out if it'll work...but it comforts me to know it's
there.

I hope that helps.

Jim
  #18  
Old February 11th 04, 05:39 PM
nafod40
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Bill Daniels wrote:
"nafod40" wrote

They've been given the real test...by an owner.

http://www.ulflyingmag.com/2003web/a...cirrusave.html


I've read that story before but the SR22 is not a glider. The SR22 gear
legs are designed to absorb a lot of the impact. I don't think a gliders'
hard gear will protect my spine when hitting a hard surface at 5 meters per
second.

I don't think even the manufacturers of these "whole-aircraft" chutes claim
that landing with one is safer than landing with a personal 'chute.

I'm with Mike Borgelt. Give me a NOAH or a tail 'chute to stabilize the
wreckage so I can depart with a personal 'chute.


Some thoughts to consider...
1. Glider weighs a lot less than a Cirrus, since you don't have engine,
etc. to lower to ground = slower land speed. Want slower landing? Use
bigger chute. Someone will come up with airbag deployment too. Should be
cheap, as they are mass produced for cars.
2. Landing in prone position vice upright, you can accept a hell of a
big force. Gliders put you in the right position to land.
3. Jumping out of plane at low levels can be hazardous to your health.
4. With whole plane chute, you still have an intact glider when all is
said and done. With personal chute, you have scrap.

I personally sat in (never used...knock on wood) an ejection seat for a
few thousand hours, but they weigh more than some gliders, I think.

  #19  
Old February 11th 04, 05:50 PM
Jim Harper
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Mike Borgelt wrote in message . ..

some snippage
The whole ship chute concept is a bit of a worry. There you are in a
large heavy object with absolutely no control. With a personal chute
you do have steering on most rigs nowadays.

With a whole ship chute would it just ruin your day to have save and
then hit the high voltage lines, fall out of a tree, fall over a cliff
etc?

some MORE snippage

Mike Borgelt


Actually, Mike, on that we disagree.

Unless you are using a square canopy for your personal chute, you have
very little choice on where you are gonna land...and hitting the tree,
high voltage lines or over the cliff are gonna suck less if you have
some aluminum or fiberglass around you. Well, that was my decision for
sure.

Oh, and keep in mind that as I disagree with you, I do it with all due
deference to someone as distinguished in our sport as yourself (no
sarcasm, I meant that!)

Jim
  #20  
Old February 11th 04, 06:13 PM
Ian MacArthur
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Just wondering...

Do Americans wear parachutes whilst flying in competitions?
I went to fly at one of the big clubs in the states,
no-one wore any chutes but there were some availiable.
so we wore them.


 




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