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#21
December 30th 03, 05:07 AM
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#22
December 30th 03, 05:19 AM
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"Tank Fixer" wrote in message k.net... In article .net, says... As much as I hate to say it, in Daryls defense haven't any of you guys done a live fire exercise? Of course though those times that I have been involved in them, we were shooting at targets near other soldiers (by near I mean to say 100-200 meters away, but never any closer)but not at other soldiers. I have, Ft Benning and other places. Yea, gets your attention when you hear "bang, bang, bang" just like normal then hear "bang, bang, bang, *ting*". And the idea that someone would delibetatly shoot a LAW at other soldiers in a training exercise is absurd. I have had sabot shot over my position by mistake at a range. Sabot overhead can kill you, that shoe is bouncing around some where. They shut the place down for two days to investigate. I've found individual live rounds during exercises on the ground and ready boxes of belted blanks for the SAWs; police them up as the situation permits. Ready live ammo would be a show stopper.
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#23
December 30th 03, 05:24 AM
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Admin wrote:
"Mary Shafer" wrote in message ... On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:18:41 GMT, Tank Fixer wrote: As for the A-12s, they were there in the 70s. I Physically saw them lined up in a nice little row on the tarmak along with support equipment (power units). What they were doing there, I have no idea. IIRC there were what a half dozen or so A-12 built in the early 60's ? Funny that you could see them in the 1970's when they had been retired and placed in storage in 1968. The "storage" was the ramp at AF Plant 42. They were pretty easy to see, at least in later years, sprayed with some sort of white stuff. I've saw the A-12s regularly. You could even snap photos while flying near, but not over, Plant 42. However, I have nothing to add regarding the rest of this except agreement with Tank Fixer. Except you just disagreed with him in his assessment that the A-12 could not possibly be there. You and I both know they were. What you saw was them putting them into mothballs. I saw them prior to that just before they were mothballed. they were withdraw from service and mothballed in Palmdale CA, in 1968. how could you see them in Nevada, in use, in the 1970's? redc1c4 and you wonder why folks call you a bull****ter. -- "Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching." Army Officer's Guide
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#24
December 30th 03, 05:48 AM
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Found the original designation for the Phantoms, according to Rene
Francillon's Putnam volume on the subject. In 1954 (18 Oct, to be precise) the Navy issued a Letter of Intent to procure two long range twin engine attack aircraft designated YAH-1. The Navy designator was changed to XF4H-1 in May 1955. The first AF version was externally identical to the F-4B and was procured as the F-110A under a letter of intent dated 30 March 1962. -- Jim Atkins Twentynine Palms CA USA "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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#26
December 30th 03, 06:23 AM
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#27
December 30th 03, 10:29 AM
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Jay T. Beatty wrote:
"Tank Fixer" wrote in message k.net... In article .net, says... As much as I hate to say it, in Daryls defense haven't any of you guys done a live fire exercise? Of course though those times that I have been involved in them, we were shooting at targets near other soldiers (by near I mean to say 100-200 meters away, but never any closer)but not at other soldiers. I have, Ft Benning and other places. And the idea that someone would delibetatly shoot a LAW at other soldiers in a training exercise is absurd. I have had sabot shot over my position by mistake at a range. They shut the place down for two days to investigate. Yeah, the whole LAW thing is a bit out of control. I've been through live fire exercises too but, we don't do them like the Soviets did where the fire is sometimes falling "danger close" or closer to the troops maneuvering. I think I would have heard about it too because in the 1980s my cousin CPT Malcolm Quon was stationed there and an incident like that would have been as infamous as the one where some dufus put a CP tent up in a dry river bed at NTC and got washed out. I've heard of them taking tanks over cliffs at night, the incredible sinking M113 and a few others that are pretty strange but never heard of this incident with the 82nd and the OKARNG. Snark
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#28
December 30th 03, 10:40 AM
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~Nins~ wrote:
"Tank Fixer" wrote in message k.net... In article , says... "David W" wrote in message ... DM's LAW story, the A-12's @ Groom Lake, the FB-4's in Turkey, P-38's in the 1950's ? I missed these, anyone care to fill me in or point me in the right direction please ? They'll just screw it up so let me. How nice of you to make the claims again. I wouldn't want to mis-quote you. I talked with an Oklahoma Nation Guard that said his unit trained at FT Hood with the 82nd in the early 80s. It was an exercise of sorts. He said that the Guards got a bit rambuntious and were getting mighty close to the 82nd until an 82nd place a LAW round just to the left (or right) of a Guards head. At that point, things were more than a bit intense and they stopped the exercise. I do know a few of the Guards were more than a bit cocky and that 82nd troop probably did the best lesson they ever learned. Is it true? You take it up with the OKGuards, not me. But it sounds like it could have happened. Does this pass the smell test ? That live ammo was on an exercise ? Troops shooting at(near) troops on purpose ? Was it something like this type of exercise, EDRE when the brigade is on DRB1, and the troops do not know if it is practice or for real? Would live ammo be used then? Is this what he is referring to, possibly? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army/82abn.htm 10th paragraph down "An EDRE is nothing more than a practice deployment which involves the DRF 1 Task Force and possibly the DRF 2 and DRF 3 as well. When the EDRE is called, no one knows if it is practice or real. The units go through the entire alert, recall, and deployment procedures as if i t is real. " snip Nins, I was with the 82nds 2/505th INF and went on several EDREs you know if it is real when you get your ammo, in practice you get blanks, if it was real they pass out live ammo. They don't break the seals on live ammo unless they have to because the USAF won't transport it once the seals are broken since there's no way to know what we've put in each of the open cans. Snark -- Panthers on Point!
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#29
December 30th 03, 03:35 PM
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On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 06:23:07 GMT, Tank Fixer
wrote: In article , says... On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:19:42 GMT, Tank Fixer wrote: So did the F-100, F-84 and F-104 wings. None had any silly FB designation. One aircraft got that, the FB-111 Only for the ones SAC took on. Please note that the FB-111 which SAC flew out of Pease and Plattsburgh was a different model entirely than the F-111A/D/E/F versions flown in TAC and USAFE. Larger wing, higher gross weight, different avionics. Well aware of it. Wasn't that wing a carry over from the F111B program for the USN ? No. If anything, the B model wing was smaller than A. Don't quote me on that. Never liked 'Varks. It took way too long for the airplane to become operationally effective. Folks who drove them almost universally had a "can't do" attitude. Few fighter pilots in the organization. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8
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#30
December 30th 03, 04:59 PM
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On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:27:50 GMT, "~Nins~" wrote:
[lots of stuff snipped] Actually, I'm finding several references on the net where training with live ammo is indicated. http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...training.shtml The US Army trains with live fire all the time, but that doesn't mean they allow troops to shoot at each other. Any such incident would be cause for an immediate halt to training and an investigation, and some big ass-kicking. The normal practice at infiltration/low crawl ranges is for the machine guns to be bolted down in a frame which allows only a limited amount of movement, usually in the horizontal plane. The MGs fire down "alleys", and the only way to get hurt is by standing up in the line of fire. Usually the only casualties on these kinds of ranges are the ringing ears of the MG gunners, who get to fire all day from a concrete bunker, and who then get to police up a ton of brass and links. They may also get a burn or two from a red-hot MG barrel or have a runaway autofiring MG. Been there, done that. The idea that Army troops would shoot at each other in training scenarios is ridiculous. The only thing I've ever heard of that has even a modicum of similarity is of two BCT companies at Ft. Knox shooting towards each other from one rifle range to another, and that story was put out by a drill sergeant to impress raw boots - it's almost certainly 99.99% B.S. There are elaborate regulations and range rules about the use of live fire. For instance one of those regulations has to do with the use of armor-piercing ammo during exercises where armored vehicles are in use, i.e. if you are going to shoot live ammo in a firepower exercise and you have a bunch of troops buttoned up in APCs, for safety's sake you don't use AP ammo in case a round goes into an APC by mistake. That doesn't mean that anyone would shoot conventional ammo at an APC on purpose. I've worked both range airspace and at range controls, and anytime there was a problem with where fire was landing, or there were range incusions, training ops were immediately stopped. Ops were even stopped when fire wasn't close but troops on the ground perceived that it was, i.e. the fire was within legal parameters but somebody got nervous because of their perceptions. There have been training accidents where people got hurt or killed by live fire. I was in the cockpit of a Chinook which was narrowly missed by a live TOW missile headed for a tank hulk. Made my whole day... John Hairell )
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