S-turns on final

"S" turns were taught to me in early stages of hang glider training. It is used as inexperience to judging height when too high on final. Most I saw used on first few flights then used a more standard approach. From the ground it really looks like an inexperienced pilot, but the judgement for approach was right on for those that I saw using it. I think there were a lot of hang glider pilots that did/do not have any other type of flight training and so no good judgement of height, and I think the tendency of new hang glider solo would tend to be high on final.

I have never been taught "S" turns in glider training. I would much rather track slightly away on downwind, and or extend, than to have to "S" turn on final.

If that video is from the 40's, I wonder when this was stopped being taught..

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 2:44:26 AM UTC+3, Casey wrote:
"S" turns were taught to me in early stages of hang glider training. It is used as inexperience to judging height when too high on final. Most I saw used on first few flights then used a more standard approach. From the ground it really looks like an inexperienced pilot, but the judgement for approach was right on for those that I saw using it. I think there were a lot of hang glider pilots that did/do not have any other type of flight training and so no good judgement of height, and I think the tendency of new hang glider solo would tend to be high on final.

I have never been taught "S" turns in glider training. I would much rather track slightly away on downwind, and or extend, than to have to "S" turn on final.

If that video is from the 40's, I wonder when this was stopped being taught.

It's good to have as many techniques in your arsenal as possible.

Even NASA does (did) S-turns in the circuit.

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 7:10:55 PM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It's good to have as many techniques in your arsenal as possible.

Even NASA does (did) S-turns in the circuit.


Gosh, I would hesitate to call the roll reversals "S-turns"

Read below article, very interesting.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson...pgs226-241.pdf

Le jeudi 16 février 2017 08:38:18 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud a écritÂ*:
On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 7:10:55 PM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It's good to have as many techniques in your arsenal as possible.

Even NASA does (did) S-turns in the circuit.


Gosh, I would hesitate to call the roll reversals "S-turns"

Read below article, very interesting.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson...gs226-241..pdf

Great article.

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 23:38:17 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 7:10:55 PM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It's good to have as many techniques in your arsenal as possible.

Even NASA does (did) S-turns in the circuit.


Gosh, I would hesitate to call the roll reversals "S-turns"

Read below article, very interesting.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson...in_Wings-ch4d-
pgs226-241.pdf

Thanks for posting that. However, whether you consider those S-turns or
not, they were certainly not in the circuit (the shuttle flew straight-in
patterns IIRC), rather they were en route to destination.

BTW, somewhere I have an ancient shuttle landing simulator (for Win 95)
that was interesting to experiment with. Does anybody know if a Linux
version is available? There should be a port - NASA's original version
ran on a Unix-based laptop that got sat on the Shuttle glare shield
during command pilot training. The PC sim started you at 350kts and
55,000ft and no matter what you did with it, you were on the ground after
2.5 - 3 minutes.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Let us not forget that turns below 200 ft AGL potentially expose us to wind gradient having unequal and undesirable effects on the high vs low wing.

With the very high degree of spoiler effectiveness on most gliders, if "said pilot" is regularly "forced" to slip or S-turn in order to make their intended touch down point, there is probably something else wrong "upstream" in said pilots landing pattern decision making process. Also, the majority of sailplane landing patterns appear to me to be rather high (again, IMO).

I commented here only to state (I'll say it again now) that slipping a high performance glider is almost useless (IMO). It requires such an aggressive slip angle (in order to result in any measurable increase in descent rate) that it is uncomfortable (and unnecessary) for me, personally (IMO). I'm surprised to hear otherwise, but that certainly doesn't change my opinion or practices. Perhaps their fuselages are the "slab sided" ASG29 version ;-). Perhaps I am a poor pilot. Perhaps this is a skill I need to work on. Oh well, for now, I don't slip unless absolutely necessary. I prefer docile S turns, but can only really recall one time I have done this. I have never needed a slip in my ASG29 or (ex) Lak17a (in the execution of many, many land-outs)

That said, slips are an important skill in glider pilot training. To need to use them on a regular basis (or even rare basis) is perhaps indicative of some other concerns or areas of potential landing pattern/planning skill improvement. The need to slip or S-turn means that to that point in the approach, the pilot has misjudged the approach extremely high in terms of altitude and/or total energy, requiring a last resort maneuver (slip or S-turn) in order to bleed it off. Desperate. Poor planning. Poor energy management. This is how people get hurt.

For those who have not yet flown higher performance glider, when you do, I would strongly suggest practicing slips at high altitude before trying (or being forced to exectute) a true, aggressive (full rudder) slip, with full spoilers (and perhaps 25-30% water remaining, simulating real world stress, for example) and at low (minimum possible) final approach speed while at very low altitude into a short land-out field (perhaps with tall trees on both ends and in some wind).

I strongly prefer striving to execute consistent, well managed, stable approaches without big transitions from slip to non slip (close to the ground, at the last moment), especially when flying in a high performance glider (in which I feel slips are ineffective). Gliders have outstanding glideslope control with spoilers (and perhaps flaps). My goal is to fly the entire approach (from midfield downwind to near touchdown) with a set pitch, set flap setting, set speed and set spoiler setting (33%, I have a mark I use). The exact same approach every time. This takes significant practice. I prefer focusing on precisely controlling my energy (not too fast, not too high, good base turn decision) as early as possible in every approach. That is the critical moment in the approach for me, not the final leg. Everything flows from this mindset of setting the approach up with great precision and getting stable early.. If necessary, I prefer managing my glideslope with spoilers (only) and in a very smooth, controlable manner. If I must use them, I try and minimize adjustments rather than making constant adjustments (unstable). If I ultimately need to S turn, or slip, it means I have really (enormously) misjudged the approach and/or the landing area (perhaps the height of the trees on the approach end, wires I didn't see, or the usable length of the field (perhaps identifying a rock or a post on final)). If I started experiencing gross errors in general landing pattern decisions regularly (landouts or normal landings at an airport), requiring slips or S-turns to make the touchdown point (and stress), I would schedule some meaningful time with a respected flight instructor and sort myself out.

Perhaps I'll be having a talk with one about slips in my 29 in fact. So, thanks for this discussion.

Sean
7T

Sorry Sean,

if you think that slips are not effective in high performance ships, you should get some training.

Not that I think that they are much needed, but you should know how to comfortably perform them down to 30 ft off the ground.


In the lasr 35 years of flying all types of gliders, it never came to my mind to use S-turns. But I had to use slips some time.

Bert

Ventus cM
which slips nicely...

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:26:51 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
With the very high degree of spoiler effectiveness on most gliders, if "said pilot" is regularly "forced" to slip or S-turn in order to make their intended touch down point, there is probably something else wrong "upstream" in said pilots landing pattern decision making process. Also, the majority of sailplane landing patterns appear to me to be rather high (again, IMO)..

I commented here only to state (I'll say it again now) that slipping a high performance glider is almost useless (IMO). It requires such an aggressive slip angle (in order to result in any measurable increase in descent rate) that it is uncomfortable (and unnecessary) for me, personally (IMO). I'm surprised to hear otherwise, but that certainly doesn't change my opinion or practices. Perhaps their fuselages are the "slab sided" ASG29 version ;-). Perhaps I am a poor pilot. Perhaps this is a skill I need to work on. Oh well, for now, I don't slip unless absolutely necessary. I prefer docile S turns, but can only really recall one time I have done this. I have never needed a slip in my ASG29 or (ex) Lak17a (in the execution of many, many land-outs)

That said, slips are an important skill in glider pilot training. To need to use them on a regular basis (or even rare basis) is perhaps indicative of some other concerns or areas of potential landing pattern/planning skill improvement. The need to slip or S-turn means that to that point in the approach, the pilot has misjudged the approach extremely high in terms of altitude and/or total energy, requiring a last resort maneuver (slip or S-turn) in order to bleed it off. Desperate. Poor planning. Poor energy management. This is how people get hurt.

For those who have not yet flown higher performance glider, when you do, I would strongly suggest practicing slips at high altitude before trying (or being forced to exectute) a true, aggressive (full rudder) slip, with full spoilers (and perhaps 25-30% water remaining, simulating real world stress, for example) and at low (minimum possible) final approach speed while at very low altitude into a short land-out field (perhaps with tall trees on both ends and in some wind).

I strongly prefer striving to execute consistent, well managed, stable approaches without big transitions from slip to non slip (close to the ground, at the last moment), especially when flying in a high performance glider (in which I feel slips are ineffective). Gliders have outstanding glideslope control with spoilers (and perhaps flaps). My goal is to fly the entire approach (from midfield downwind to near touchdown) with a set pitch, set flap setting, set speed and set spoiler setting (33%, I have a mark I use).. The exact same approach every time. This takes significant practice. I prefer focusing on precisely controlling my energy (not too fast, not too high, good base turn decision) as early as possible in every approach. That is the critical moment in the approach for me, not the final leg. Everything flows from this mindset of setting the approach up with great precision and getting stable early.. If necessary, I prefer managing my glideslope with spoilers (only) and in a very smooth, controlable manner. If I must use them, I try and minimize adjustments rather than making constant adjustments (unstable). If I ultimately need to S turn, or slip, it means I have really (enormously) misjudged the approach and/or the landing area (perhaps the height of the trees on the approach end, wires I didn't see, or the usable length of the field (perhaps identifying a rock or a post on final)). If I started experiencing gross errors in general landing pattern decisions regularly (landouts or normal landings at an airport), requiring slips or S-turns to make the touchdown point (and stress), I would schedule some meaningful time with a respected flight instructor and sort myself out.

Perhaps I'll be having a talk with one about slips in my 29 in fact. So, thanks for this discussion.

Sean
7T

How do people feel about aggressive slips with partial water? I had an experience where exiting the slip and leveling off on approach was more difficult than expected due to water shifting to the downhill portion of both wings.

Matt

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 7:26:51 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
With the very high degree of spoiler effectiveness on most gliders, if "said pilot" is regularly "forced" to slip or S-turn in order to make their intended touch down point, there is probably something else wrong "upstream" in said pilots landing pattern decision making process. Also, the majority of sailplane landing patterns appear to me to be rather high (again, IMO)..

I commented here only to state (I'll say it again now) that slipping a high performance glider is almost useless (IMO). It requires such an aggressive slip angle (in order to result in any measurable increase in descent rate) that it is uncomfortable (and unnecessary) for me, personally (IMO). I'm surprised to hear otherwise, but that certainly doesn't change my opinion or practices. Perhaps their fuselages are the "slab sided" ASG29 version ;-). Perhaps I am a poor pilot. Perhaps this is a skill I need to work on. Oh well, for now, I don't slip unless absolutely necessary. I prefer docile S turns, but can only really recall one time I have done this. I have never needed a slip in my ASG29 or (ex) Lak17a (in the execution of many, many land-outs)

That said, slips are an important skill in glider pilot training. To need to use them on a regular basis (or even rare basis) is perhaps indicative of some other concerns or areas of potential landing pattern/planning skill improvement. The need to slip or S-turn means that to that point in the approach, the pilot has misjudged the approach extremely high in terms of altitude and/or total energy, requiring a last resort maneuver (slip or S-turn) in order to bleed it off. Desperate. Poor planning. Poor energy management. This is how people get hurt.

For those who have not yet flown higher performance glider, when you do, I would strongly suggest practicing slips at high altitude before trying (or being forced to exectute) a true, aggressive (full rudder) slip, with full spoilers (and perhaps 25-30% water remaining, simulating real world stress, for example) and at low (minimum possible) final approach speed while at very low altitude into a short land-out field (perhaps with tall trees on both ends and in some wind).

I strongly prefer striving to execute consistent, well managed, stable approaches without big transitions from slip to non slip (close to the ground, at the last moment), especially when flying in a high performance glider (in which I feel slips are ineffective). Gliders have outstanding glideslope control with spoilers (and perhaps flaps). My goal is to fly the entire approach (from midfield downwind to near touchdown) with a set pitch, set flap setting, set speed and set spoiler setting (33%, I have a mark I use).. The exact same approach every time. This takes significant practice. I prefer focusing on precisely controlling my energy (not too fast, not too high, good base turn decision) as early as possible in every approach. That is the critical moment in the approach for me, not the final leg. Everything flows from this mindset of setting the approach up with great precision and getting stable early.. If necessary, I prefer managing my glideslope with spoilers (only) and in a very smooth, controlable manner. If I must use them, I try and minimize adjustments rather than making constant adjustments (unstable). If I ultimately need to S turn, or slip, it means I have really (enormously) misjudged the approach and/or the landing area (perhaps the height of the trees on the approach end, wires I didn't see, or the usable length of the field (perhaps identifying a rock or a post on final)). If I started experiencing gross errors in general landing pattern decisions regularly (landouts or normal landings at an airport), requiring slips or S-turns to make the touchdown point (and stress), I would schedule some meaningful time with a respected flight instructor and sort myself out.

Perhaps I'll be having a talk with one about slips in my 29 in fact. So, thanks for this discussion.

Of course you shouldn't find yourself unexpectedly needing a slip -- at least not more than once in a few hundred landings due to a headwind a circuit altitude turning into a tail wind on short final, or something like that (e.g. on an outlanding).

That doesn't mean you shouldn't practice it. I often fly approaches in the DG1000 (or Janus before it) with perfectly standard heights turning base and final, but using only slip and no brakes/flaps at all until at maybe 50 ft and in the normal place at the normal speed and height.

I don't know whether those count as "high performance" for you -- I don't fly single-seaters a lot and maybe they're different. A slip is relatively ineffective, but it's comparable to half brakes. If you add it to full brakes instead of using it instead of brakes then you can come down really quick..