Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

Viperdoc writes:

I suggest that you contact a flight instructor and perhaps get an instrument
rating. Part of the instruction will include an explanation of the charts.

It's too expensive.

Dane Spearing writes:

The former. NA = "Not Authorized"

Then why are other people saying that I can devise my own instrument departure
if one is not published? Who's right?

Sam Spade writes:

Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.

The big mountains might or might not be a problem, depending on the aircraft.

I believe the rule is that if there is a departure procedure
published, fly the departure procedure.

If there is an approach chart published, but but no departure
procedure, the rule is no turns before 400' AGL, and maintain 200 FPNM
and you will be clear of obstructions.

No approach plate, you are on your own.

Does this not cover everything?


On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:37:12 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jan 14, 9:50*am, "J.Kahn" wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. *The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. *DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. *Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. *I
planned to depart from runway 26. *My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: *How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? *The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. *The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. *So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? *Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? *Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

Huh? The FAA guarantees you won't hit anything when you are not flying
a procedure as long as you climb at 200 ft/nm? I think you are mixing
up two different things. When there is no procedure in place for
departure you grab your sectional and plan a route. Lots of airports
don't even appear in the approach manual.

-robert, CFII

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:33:25 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


Your either joking or don't fly IFR in GA aircraft very often. There
are lots of airports where you have to define your own IFR departure
using the sectional charts. Some airports don't even show up on the
EnRoute charts.

You're partially right on the second one. I don't fly ifr GA in light
aircraft.

I didn't realize it was so prevalent, and considered a safe maneuvre.
Stan

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:20:10 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:


Well, now I'm reading conflicting things. Does NA for Runway 26 mean that no
instrument departures are allowed from that runway, period, or does it simply
mean that none are defined but that you can still "roll your own"?

That's a good question. It's not available from the FAA. You can
roll your own. Of course, if there was an FAA one, you'd have
obstacle clearance guaranteed by them. If it's NA, you have to
guarantee your own. Stan

On Jan 14, 9:57 pm, Sam Spade wrote:
Jon wrote:
On Jan 13, 12:28 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

[...]
Oops! My bad. I didn't look carefull and thought I was responding to a
pilot.

Yet you continue replying...

I know, the devil makes me do it.

No I didn't

wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:20:10 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:


Well, now I'm reading conflicting things. Does NA for Runway 26 mean that no
instrument departures are allowed from that runway, period, or does it simply
mean that none are defined but that you can still "roll your own"?


That's a good question. It's not available from the FAA. You can
roll your own. Of course, if there was an FAA one, you'd have
obstacle clearance guaranteed by them. If it's NA, you have to
guarantee your own. Stan

Another legal interp might very well be: at a VFR airport Part 91-only
can roll its own. But, at an IFR airport where the FAA has
affirmatively denied takeoff minimums you might find that rolling your
own at an IFR airport on a NA runway might cause some grief.

Weather permitting, the conservative way to depart Runway 26 at Big Bear
is to request a VFR climb to the minimum 91.177 altitude.

Robert M. Gary wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:02 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:59 pm, "J.Kahn" wrote:

I wonder if the reason is simply that departure in that direction
doesn't meet 200 ft/NM at some distance out, maybe 10 or 20 miles, but
the FAA has not got around to doing the required survey to arrive at a
specified departure gradient requirement so they just declare it NA
until someday they get around to it. I believe that you have to be
able to have obstacle clearance with 200 ft/NM out to 22 NM from the
runway before you have to have a specified gradient other than default,
which gets you to 4400 HAA.

The 200 ft/nm applies to departure procedures that do not otherwise
specify a minimum climb gradient. Absent a departure procedure the
pilot is free to make up any procedure he sees fit. The FAA has not
come close to visiting every airport and creating DPs for every runway
out there.

-robert, CFII

That is misleading. For a runway at an IFR airport that has NA, they
have looked at it. Shame on you for not knowing that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Then what does your 200ft/nm refer to?? I'm not aware of anything from
the FAA that says you are guaranteed you can depart any runway and
clear terrain if you maintain 200ft/nm. The only reference I know of
regarding 200ft/nm is that it is the default required gradiant if an
existing DP does not otherwise specify a required gradiant. Many, many
DP's require 300 or even 400ft/nm so not being able to do 200 ft/nm
cleary does not prohibit a DP.


-Robert
I didn't say anything about 200 feet per mile in this thread.

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
Sam Spade wrote:


That is misleading. For a runway at an IFR airport that has NA, they
have looked at it. Shame on you for not knowing that.


Is that always true?

Let's take a real example -- a bunch of years ago, POU designated the grass
off to the side of 6/24 as 7/25. So, here's an airport that has had IFR
approach and departure procedures for eons, and all of a sudden, a new
runway springs into life. Is the airport not allowed to call the grass a
runway until the TERPS guys have had the opportunity to do their analysis?
Or can they just do the obvious thing and say "Nobody in their right mind
would ever take off IFR from the grass" and leave it at that?

In fact, the procedures book has this to say about departing from POU:

POUGHKEEPSIE, NY
DUTCHESS COUNTY
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 6, 500-1.
Rwys 15,33, 400-1.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 6,climb direct IGN
VOR/DME, then via IGN R-070 to 2000 before
proceeding on course. Rwy 15, climb to 600 then
climbing left turn to 1000 direct IGN VOR/DME before
proceeding on course. Rwy 24, climb to 2000 via IGN R-
250 before proceeding on course. Rwy 33, climb to 600
then climbing right turn to 1000 direct IGN VOR/DME
before proceeding on course.

No mention of 7/25 at all.

That tells me that the regional Airports Division has not recognized
that runway for IFR operations. It's absense from the takeoff minimums
I would take to mean it is a VFR runway.

What would POU Ground say if I called up and requested, "Taxi to 7, for IFR
departure"? For that matter, what if I told Tower on the way in that I was
flying the ILS-6, sidestep 7?

They couldn't care less. ATC doesn't monitor pilot legalities for IFR
operations. As to IFR departure on the runway, that would be a FSDO
call if they became involved. As to sidestep, you can't roll your own
sidestep minimums, they have to be charted. Could you use
circle-to-land minimums to land on the turf runway. I would think you
could during the daytime, but again only the FSDO could answer that with
authority.