Israel pays the price for buying only Boeing (and not Airbus)

"Quant" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message
. ..
On 1 Jul 2003 15:34:02 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message
. com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380
project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy
only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out
on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro
quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).


American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.


Israeli defense contractors will be (very happy).
Friendship between US and Israel is a two way street.

Yes, America will not hate Israel, like "old Europe".

wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jul 2003 15:34:02 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message . com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).


American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.

Please. Take a gander at what portion of US defense exports go to
Israel; the last figures I found (covering 97-99) indicated that
Israel accounted for just over 5% of total US sales. Given that even
*without* US aid money the IDF is going to *have* to continue to shop
in the US for parts, components, etc., your predictions of defense
contractors storming the government appear to be significantly
exaggerated. And imagine the potential of increased sales to Arab
nations should the US cease its economic and military underpinning of
Israel...

Brooks

In message -
(Kevin Brooks) writes:


[snip]

points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).

It started to happen gradually when Benjamin Netaniyahoo was at the
PM post: Israel started on its own a multi-year initiative to reduce the
aid sum by 100M$ per year. But he only stayed 3 years at this post -
after failing to prevent Netaniyahoo's win in 1996, in 1999 elections
the US made every effort to not let it fail again and with lots of
US-funded pro-Barak "associations" Netaniyahoo lost to the most
worthless PM I remember. Needless to say, Barak stopped the process
of gradual reduction of aid that Netaniyahoo started. In general, US
administrations from both sides prefare Israeli elections to be
won by our left (which act to increase the ammount of aid we take) than by
our right (which act to gradually decrease the ammount of aid). It almost
looks like US administrations are not interested in Israel stopping
asking for aid. Why? I had a hunch but you gave a figure few lines
below which supports my hunch:



American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.

Please. Take a gander at what portion of US defense exports go to
Israel; the last figures I found (covering 97-99) indicated that
Israel accounted for just over 5% of total US sales. Given that even

Only 5% of US weapons given away for free to Israel? That explains why
US administrations would prefare things to remain as they are now.

The F-16 alone has about 800 changes in them suggested by IAF as a result
of their operation and which worth billions to the F-16s manufacturer when
selling to other states. In a similar way, almost any US weapon in IDF has
lots of "bugs" found and reported, which translates to higher profits when
selling to other states. Also, there are other issues that salespeople
know worth a lot:

The first A-G use of F-16 was by IAF, the destruction of the Iraqi reactor.
The first A-A victory of F-16 also happened in IAF few weeks earlier.
The first A-A victory of F-15 also happened in IAF.

When a salesperson from General Dynamics (those old days, Lockheed today,
IIRC) competes on a fat contract against, say a salesperson from Marcell
Dassault (sp?) from one of these other 95% states, the words "our product
had been tested by Israel" worth LOTS of money. So it makes a perfect
business sense: give away 5% of weapons to Israel, which'll debug them
and most probably use them in real combat and after that use the weapon
record in IDF to rip profits from the remaining 95% of the market.

Like another poster mentioned in this thread, nothing is given for free.

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(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message . com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).

Sure it can happen, when the US stops selling the Arab states surrounding
Israel, and still technically at war with Israel, three times as much US
arms in dollar terms that sells it to Israel. The MAIN reason why Israel
gets $3B in aid annually is so that US defense contactors can sell Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Jordan $5 billion in arms annually without
opposition from AIPAC, or increased Israel arms sales to China and other
states we'd rather they not sell their own advanced technologies to.
It IS quid pro quo, and not just based on sentiments.

(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message . com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).

Sure it can happen, when the US stops selling the Arab states surrounding
Israel, and still technically at war with Israel, three times as much US
arms in dollar terms that sells it to Israel.


But which the largest part of is paid for by US taxpayers; odd idea w
the concept of "selling" stuff to Israel, IMO.

The MAIN reason why Israel
gets $3B in aid annually is so that US defense contactors can sell Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Jordan $5 billion in arms annually without
opposition from AIPAC, or increased Israel arms sales to China and other
states we'd rather they not sell their own advanced technologies to.
It IS quid pro quo, and not just based on sentiments.

Come now. We were providing extensive monetary aid to Israel before we
started selling major/modern arms to the neighboring Arabs. From what
I can recall, israel held out quite firmly for a significant aid
increase and additional one-time funds (i.e., paying for new airbases
to replace those lost when they gave up the Sinai) before they would
agree to sign the peace treaty with Egypt (Carter being oh-so-willing
to pay that tribute in return for his moment of glory).

Brooks

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message

The MAIN reason why Israel
gets $3B in aid annually is so that US defense contactors can sell Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Jordan $5 billion in arms annually without
opposition from AIPAC, or increased Israel arms sales to China and other
states we'd rather they not sell their own advanced technologies to.
It IS quid pro quo, and not just based on sentiments.

Come now. We were providing extensive monetary aid to Israel before we
started selling major/modern arms to the neighboring Arabs.

Israel did get mostly civilian aid to help Israel integrate millions
of Jewish immigrants, but it was relatively little compared to the
aid that began to flow after the Six Day War when Israel proved its
capability of standing up to the SOviet Union, and Johnson saw Israel
as a potential asset. The US arms embargo to BOTH sides then was
effectively
jettisoned, allowing for the US to become the major armorer of both
sides
in the conflict.


From what
I can recall, israel held out quite firmly for a significant aid
increase and additional one-time funds (i.e., paying for new airbases
to replace those lost when they gave up the Sinai) before they would
agree to sign the peace treaty with Egypt (Carter being oh-so-willing
to pay that tribute in return for his moment of glory).

I can understand why Israel, which had been pressured THREE TIMES
since
1948 to repeatedly return the Sinai to Egypt, including the oil fields
that Israel had developed the last time to get US compensation, but
for the life
of me I can't understand the $2.8 B annual tribute to Egypt which
received
from Israel a much improved Sinai! Not only does Israel lost strategic
depth and costly infrastructure, but its own US aid is offset by a
similar
amount of aid to Egypt. Can you explain to me the rationale, or how
Israel
gained in that "bargain?" The Egyptian army today, thanks to US
training
and arms, is far more dangerous than it ever was under SOviet
tutelage.

On 30 Jun 2003 14:54:44 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

Exactly what "price" are you talking about?

What would the benefits of being included in the Airbus 380 project
have been and would they have outweighed the costs?

Blair Maynard wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jun 2003 14:54:44 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

Exactly what "price" are you talking about?


What would the benefits of being included in the Airbus 380 project
have been and would they have outweighed the costs?



According to understandings between IAI and Airbus, IAI was supposed
to manufacture parts of the Airbus 380 in Israel. We're talking about
revenues of at least 50% from the cost of the Airbus planes El Al
intended to purchase. It was profitable for El Al, for IAI and for
Airbus.

Then the state department and the government of Israel interfered (El
Al was a governmental company till few weeks ago), and El Al bought
only Boeing 777's.
More details you can find he
http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Fleets/LY777.html

It's important to note that I posted this post only for Brooks.

I don't care to pay a bit more when it comes to friends. America is a
friend and the hypocrite European terrorist-supporters are not. So, I
don't have a problem with the Boeing deal.

But its unpleasant to hear _all day_ people like Brooks who is
obsessed _morning to night_ to slam Israel on every opportunity he has
in r.a.m, especially on the subject of the US aid to Israel. Recently
I posted a post about the "Python 5" (Rafael just presented it on the
Paris Air Show). Not surprisingly, "the obsessed" jumped and asked
"when it will be sold to China"? Even though he knows that even the
"Python 4" wasn't sold to China because we don't sell cutting-edge
technology to anyone. There's an understanding between US and Israel
on this subject, the same understanding that guarantees that Israel
will have better F-15's/F-16's than Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Friendship is a two way street.