Jim Leroy went in today...

"Kyle Boatright" wrote:

The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...

Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
*that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.

It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
is
intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the
envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
non-flying
public?

I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every accident
offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new
restrictions on our privileges.

-Mark

In article ,
"Mark G." wrote:

It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push
the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
non-flying public?

The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers.
While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow
performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the
lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors.
When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between
the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very
rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide
range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period.
Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back.
ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety
record of the more experience performers.

I was just walking through the gates when this accident happened. One
moment two airplanes were flying around, and the next moment there was
black smoke. The airplane descended below my viewing angle.People
standing right by the runway saw the whole thing. It makes me wonder
if it is really necessary to get down that low just for the benefit of
the spectators standing by the runway perimeter. The majority of
people standing at a distance won't see anything at such low
altitudes.

But there is a video on youtube that made me curious. It shows the
aircraft spinning downwards, then at the moment when it should be
pulling up, it enters a cloud of smoke. Is it possible that he flew
into something that obscured his visibility and he was unable to tell
his altitude?




On Jul 29, 12:01 pm, john smith wrote:
In article ,
"Mark G." wrote:

It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push
the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
non-flying public?

The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers.
While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow
performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the
lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors.
When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between
the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very
rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide
range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period.
Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back.
ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety
record of the more experience performers.

I am an "actual pilot" and I do not enjoy watching low level aerobatics --
so I don't.

"Mark G." wrote in message
...

It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this
"draw" is
intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the
envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
non-flying
public?

I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every
accident
offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new
restrictions on our privileges.

-Mark

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." wrote:
Doug Semler wrote:
On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:
..Spun in down at Dayton.

Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the
sky...

Blue skies forever...

Big bummer.

The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
favorite acro pilot.

Anyone hear what happened?

Gerald

The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...

Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
*that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.

A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes,
would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.

KB



I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits "
here.
Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the fact
that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay, you
have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.
If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
still be alive.
Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).

I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
"
here.
Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
fact
that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay,
you
have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.
If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
still be alive.
Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).



No, it is not just you.

NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have
nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than
making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars
fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still
might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it.

OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics
for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles.
However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in
order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters.

Peter
Just my $0.02, and worth what you paid.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:16:08 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
"
here.
Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
fact
that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay,
you
have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.
If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
still be alive.
Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).



No, it is not just you.

NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have
nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than
making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars
fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still
might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it.

OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics
for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles.
However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in
order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters.

Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?

Don

Don Tuite wrote:

Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?

Don

It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
and demonstration flying.
If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
if you want a copy.
Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
any air show.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...


Don Tuite wrote:

Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?

Don

It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
and demonstration flying.
If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
if you want a copy.
Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
any air show.
Dudley Henriques

By all means, Dudley, go ahead and post the link.

Peter

alas amazon says

Availability: Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will
be back in stock.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
[snip]
If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link if
you want a copy.
[snip]
Dudley Henriques