Jim Leroy went in today...

"Jim+Peggy" wrote in message
...

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." wrote:
Doug Semler wrote:
On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies"
wrote:
..Spun in down at Dayton.

Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in
the sky...

Blue skies forever...

Big bummer.

The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
favorite acro pilot.

Anyone hear what happened?

Gerald

The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...

Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
*that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the
sight lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.

A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes,
would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.

KB



I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
" here.
Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
fact that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow
pay, you have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to
survive.
That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.
If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.

I really don't think anyone, even the lowest knuckle dragger wants to see
anyone get killed, which is a very common result of bent sheet metal in the
aviation world.

Beyond that, airshow performers killing themselves is detrimental to the
entire GA community. It reinforces the image that "those small planes crash
all the time", which is one among several important factors in keeping a lot
of people from being pilots.

Raise the altitude minimums to 100' and I don't think it will impact the
show quality by enough to notice.

KB

"Richard Riley" wrote in message

I was at Osh in 92 when Jimmy Franklin fliew the Kitfox in the
airshow. He'd done his routine in his black Waco and scared the
audience with an inverted pull out at 5 feet or so. The story went
around that Phil Reed - the then new owner of Skystar - told Jimmy
he'd give Jimmy an extra $10 per foot of minimum altitude during his
show. If he kept it above 100 feet, he'd make an extra $1000.

He made an extra $30.

I saw that performance in the Kitfox and really, really enjoyed it. It was
very quiet due to the muffled Rotax. It was very graceful and smooth,
because that's the only way to fly an extended aerobatic sequence in a
draggy, low powered airplane.

I wish there were more acts like that and less noise/smoke/hardcore stuff.
I don't even pay attention to that stuff anymore at airshows. In fact,
those acts give me plenty of time to read through all the materials I picked
up earlier in the day at the vendor booths...

KB

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:56:13 -0500, "Jim+Peggy"
wrote:

That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.

FWIW, I've been to NASCAR Winston and Nextel Cup events that featured
aerobatics as an "opening act". Joe doesn't give a crap about
anything with a propeller. They don't even watch the routine.

Joe Sixpack likes jets.

Watch the non-pilots when the Iron Eagles or Patty Wagstaff fly, then
keep watching when a C-5 or FedEx Airbus does a straight and level low
pass, or especially when the military jet teams perform.

Joe is in the porta-potty or the beer tents while the Pitts, Extra,
Sukoi, and Cap models fly...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers. G

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:56:13 -0500, "Jim+Peggy"
wrote:

That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.

FWIW, I've been to NASCAR Winston and Nextel Cup events that featured
aerobatics as an "opening act". Joe doesn't give a crap about
anything with a propeller. They don't even watch the routine.

Joe Sixpack likes jets.

Watch the non-pilots when the Iron Eagles or Patty Wagstaff fly, then
keep watching when a C-5 or FedEx Airbus does a straight and level low
pass, or especially when the military jet teams perform.

Joe is in the porta-potty or the beer tents while the Pitts, Extra,
Sukoi, and Cap models fly...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers. G

Interesting. I din't think of that possibility, but it makes a sort of
sense.

Joe Sixpack may be an even smaller bit player than I supposed...

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message ...

Interesting. I din't think of that possibility, but it makes a sort of
sense.

Joe Sixpack may be an even smaller bit player than I supposed...

Peter



The thing is that RC models do those "3D" routines where they hover and even lower the tail down to the ground, and then
do insane acceleration and rolling and turning. The latest generation of airshow pilot seems to want to mimic that sort
of performance. Pretty amazing to see a Pitts derivative plane break ground and go right in to climbing knife edge
flight. Just as amazing is seeing a Stearman breaking ground and then do a slow roll. I think these folks are doing the
show for the pilots in the crowd. Joe 6pack wants to see the heavy metal and shockwave truck...

Pete;
Somebody just posted and said the book was unavailable at Amazon. I
haven't talked to Des recently and don't know if the book went into a
second printing.
What I can do is this; email me back channel using my email address here
on the group and I'll send you a review on the book done by Aeroplane
Monthly. The review has the address of the publisher. If you write to
the publisher, I'm sure they will send you a copy, but the postage from
SA might be a killer!! Anyway, the PDF file with the review and
information is yours if you want it.
Dudley Henriques

Peter Dohm wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

Don Tuite wrote:

Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?

Don
It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
and demonstration flying.
If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
if you want a copy.
Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
any air show.
Dudley Henriques

By all means, Dudley, go ahead and post the link.

Peter

In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote:

Just as amazing is seeing a Stearman breaking ground and then do a slow roll.
I think these folks are doing the
show for the pilots in the crowd.

Bob Lycjk (sic) did that in his WACO several years ago and had the
engine quit half way around. Everyone heard it. Bob, being the old pro
that he is, continued the roll, landed and shut down. It was interesting
listening to the conversation on show control when it happened.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers.

Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.

The last time I went to an airshow to volunteer with and help keep an eye on
the Tillamook P-38, the show planners had it tucked away behind opaque
plastic next to the WWI-era biplanes. The public had NO idea that any of
that was there except you could just see the tips of the props sticking up
over the barrier.

From the '38 you couldn't see the airshow because of the giant inflatable
beer can or SUV or whatever it was, but it worked out for me because I got
to talk with a 10th Mountain Division WWII vet, cruise around in WWII flight
suit on the hood of a '43 jeep, get a private all-access tour to a
fully-restored B-25, and meet Bob Hoover... ...so maybe I shouldn't
complain. But then again, I was a volunteer so I didn't have to pay to get
in, otherwise I'd have been pretty upset. They had -all- the old warbirds
parked behind a cyclone fence, though, so the public couldn't get closer
than about 20' and you could only see the front of the airplanes.
(Hillsboro, Oregon)

-c

On Jul 30, 2:56 pm, "Gattman" wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in messagenews:93aqa3t99ko1i7tcul5rhj73o5365esnut@4ax .com...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers.

Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.


Hard to believe that Jim went in. Just as it was with Bobby. When I
was first getting started in 2003, I pulled a lot of info from the
Bulldog website. Things like show schedules and contacts, a basic
performer contract, lots of little things that don't matter unless
you're trying to break into the industry and aren't a member of ICAS
yet. I performed at at least one show that he flew and he had an
amazing performance. But IMHO, airshow pilots try to add something new
each year. Outdo the otherguy, go one step farther, maybe just a
little lower, etc. Before long, 2nd order factors become primary order
factors. Things most folks don't understand like altitude density and
humidity creep in and kill people.

In my experience, airshow organizers are looking for the most draw for
their dollar. And general public draw usually equates to "spectacular"
or "bad-ass". "Joe Sixpack" is expecting to see certain things at an
airshow and they are, in order of importance: speed, sound, size,
spins, & smoke. Your show WILL need a jet team, 2 to 5 large military
statics, at least 1 high-power and one low-power solo aerobatic act,
one gimic act such as Robo-sarus or Shockwave, and all the warbirds
you can muster. Everything else, and that includes my plane, is
filler. So goes it with the large shows.

However, many of the smaller shows without huge budgets are willing to
take a change on a non-traditional act. And its at the smaller shows
that I've seen some really interesting flying. It also illustrates an
often-missed point. That mixed in with Joe Sixpack are a lot of
educated folks, many with kids, that come to see the planes, not just
the show. And sometimes they stop for 15 minutes and listen to some
guy in a funny hat talk about a small white plane with no motor that
can barely fly. They take photos, ask questions, and maybe understand
just a little bit more.

Godspeed Jim.

S. D. Harry Frey
Wright Brothers Enterprises

Good post.
It's hard to explain to people outside the community what actually goes
on inside an air show.
I remember one night in Elkton Maryland in 1973 having dinner with
Scotty McCray. I had spent the day working with him just a bit
critiquing his rolls in the Decathlon. This was the week just before he
left to go down to Sao Paulo in Brazil to demonstrate it.
We lost Scotty that week down in South America. One of the finest air
show pilots I have ever known as well as one of the nicest people to be
around.
Scotty of course was an absolute master of unpowered flight. He always
felt that bringing the glider and music together into the demonstration
venue was bringing a little of the beauty we as pilots all knew and
allowing the general public to share it with us.
Dudley Henriques



wright1902glider wrote:
On Jul 30, 2:56 pm, "Gattman" wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in messagenews:93aqa3t99ko1i7tcul5rhj73o5365esnut@4ax .com...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers.
Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.


Hard to believe that Jim went in. Just as it was with Bobby. When I
was first getting started in 2003, I pulled a lot of info from the
Bulldog website. Things like show schedules and contacts, a basic
performer contract, lots of little things that don't matter unless
you're trying to break into the industry and aren't a member of ICAS
yet. I performed at at least one show that he flew and he had an
amazing performance. But IMHO, airshow pilots try to add something new
each year. Outdo the otherguy, go one step farther, maybe just a
little lower, etc. Before long, 2nd order factors become primary order
factors. Things most folks don't understand like altitude density and
humidity creep in and kill people.

In my experience, airshow organizers are looking for the most draw for
their dollar. And general public draw usually equates to "spectacular"
or "bad-ass". "Joe Sixpack" is expecting to see certain things at an
airshow and they are, in order of importance: speed, sound, size,
spins, & smoke. Your show WILL need a jet team, 2 to 5 large military
statics, at least 1 high-power and one low-power solo aerobatic act,
one gimic act such as Robo-sarus or Shockwave, and all the warbirds
you can muster. Everything else, and that includes my plane, is
filler. So goes it with the large shows.

However, many of the smaller shows without huge budgets are willing to
take a change on a non-traditional act. And its at the smaller shows
that I've seen some really interesting flying. It also illustrates an
often-missed point. That mixed in with Joe Sixpack are a lot of
educated folks, many with kids, that come to see the planes, not just
the show. And sometimes they stop for 15 minutes and listen to some
guy in a funny hat talk about a small white plane with no motor that
can barely fly. They take photos, ask questions, and maybe understand
just a little bit more.

Godspeed Jim.

S. D. Harry Frey
Wright Brothers Enterprises