Jep p or NACO Charts?

So unless you'll do lots of IFR flying, stick with NACO.

I'm curious what you mean...

Jepps have slight benefits (i.e. better printing) but much higher
costs (i.e. time spent updating). If you fly a lot, the costs spread
over more flying, but the benefits accrue every flight.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

You're right Paul. I'm sure you can get some deals on it but even at
$3.19/book, and $3.00 shipping, the difference is $205 vs. $255. All the
threads make it seem like Jepps are *much* more expensive and they're really
not. The point is that Jepp's edge in quality (which most agree there is an
edge) is reasonably priced.

Marco Leon




"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, "Marco Leon" mmleon(at)yahoo.com said:
Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.

You don't have to pay list. I subscribe through flyairways.com, and pay
$3.19 per NOS book.

That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.

So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).

Or considerably less for NOS delivered to your door if you actually shop
around a bit.


Personally, 90% of my flying is in New York and Ontario. So I subscribe
to the NOS and Canadian charts I need for that, and when I have a trip to
somewhere else it's easy to pick up another state or two at the local
pilot shop, like I did for Oshkosh or Parent's Weekend at my
step-daughter's college. I tried the Howie Keefe system for approach
charts and found it too much of a pain to keep up to date.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Once you have an emergency, the airplane belongs to the insurance
company.
Concentrate on saving people on the ground, your passengers, and yourself,
in that order. Saving the plane is not on the list."

Roy Smith wrote in
:

Judah wrote:

Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.

During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
charts and plates.

He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
superior to the NACO charts.

Excitedly? Gee, I wonder who that might have been :-)

Hahaha!

I used to use Jepp, but switched to NOS/NACO/whatever a while back. On
the "Jepp is better" side of the story:

Better cartography, better printing, better paper.

That was a big one for Larry, and the one big benefit that I considered.


The Jepp 7-ring binder is a lot more convenient to use than what NOS
does; it's a lot simplier to pull an individual plate out of the binder
to clip on a kneeboard or whatever.

While I was doing my IFR training last year, I went to Staples and picked
up a box of free-standing Binder Rings (like the rings that go inside a 3-
ring binder, without the binder) for about $2. Now, when I get my 2
subscribed plate books every two months, I take the rings out of the old
one, punch them through the new one, and I have an instant 3 ring top
binder without the big bulky cover. I don't even have to take off the
plastic until I am going to use it, and if I need to flip to a particular
chart, I can just flip the pages over themselves quickly and easily and set
it on my lap. Works really well.

The only negative side to this is that it's slightly more effort if I want
to yank them out and put them on a yoke clip. But since the club doesn't
have them (I bought one separately and used it for a while, actually) it's
not that big a deal to set it on my lap...


Jepp has a better notam system. If there's a notam published for a
while, Jepp will usually produce a new plate with the new info right on
the plate. NOS makes you keep up with their "change notices" booklet,
etc.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Actually, as I recall from my cursory and
limited observation way back when, the Jepp books are organized slightly
more conveniently - related info is all together and nearby the main plate.

You look way cool hanging around the FBO with a Jepp binder.
Especially if it's the real leather one, not the cheap immitation kind
I used to carry around. Extra coolness points if it's old and
battered.

Yep... Larry's Jepp binder is definitely worn out and cool looking. I am
thinking about hitting some garage sales to see if I can find an old
leatherbound Classic Book or something that I can buy for 50 cents, rip the
covers off, punch 3 holes and the top, and make my binding solution look as
cool and authentic. But it's just not worth the effort.


If you fly for an airline, Jepp makes up special subscription packs
just for you, with just the routes you fly and internal ops stuff
printed on the same 7-hole paper.

Doesn't apply to me, so just not justifiable.


On the "NOS is better" side:

Cheaper.

You ain't kidding! Jepp seems to cost about 3x NOS!

You don't have to file revisions. Every 8 weeks, just get a new book
and toss the old one. Filing revisions gets old fast. Running an
end-of-year checklist to make sure you haven't lost any pages gets
really old, really fast.

That's a big plus. Amazing that the Jepp stuff is triple the price for what
I am guessing is about 20% of the paper and postage!

NOS is available anywhere. Every dinky pilot shop in every dinky
airport will stock NOS plates. It's very rare to find anyplace that
stocks Jepp. So, if you travel out of your normal area and use Jepp,
you need to plan ahead and order what you need. With NOS you can just
stop by the FBO and pick up a new book.

That's a big one. Before I got my IFR rating, I flew with a guy from HPN to
Little Rock, AR in his Bonanza (A35). He had a briefcase full of Jepp
plates with him, but during one of the stops he needed to pick up a Low-
Altitude Airway chart. Of course, they only had NOS, and he was annoyed. It
took him a minute or two extra to find stuff and look it up and all. But
the message that I got was that if everyone has the NOS charts, just use
them and be comfortable with them, because one day you may have to depend
on them...

You can download NOS-format PDF's from the web now.

That's a nice big plus - if I know I'm going somewhere, and I don't want to
buy the whole book, I can download a handful of PDFs for my destination
area and I'm set. Of course, I would have to punch the holes myself to fit
in my fancy shmancy 3 ring leather binder!

The military guys all use NOS and they manage to look cool carrying
their NOS books around with them. Must be the nomex flight suits that
really complete the look, I guess.

I'll have to buy a flight suit.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

On the "NOS is better" side:

Cheaper.

You don't have to file revisions. Every 8 weeks, just get a new book
and toss the old one. Filing revisions gets old fast. Running an
end-of-year checklist to make sure you haven't lost any pages gets
really old, really fast.

Roy: This is why I switched to the Express packs. NO 8 week updates or end
of year checklists, just every 56 days throw out the old and insert the new
just like NOS. It costs a little extra but it saves me time and I would
rather be flying than updating Jepp plates.

--
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MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

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-------------------------------------

Roy Smith wrote
I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...

The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
flight plans.

I'm going to reluctantly agree with Roy.

Reluctantly because there is one thing a personal briefing can do that
is very valuable and requires an actual human being - weather
interpretation. As a novice pilot, I learned a lot about weather from
those FSS specialists who took the time to explain what was going on
and suggest ways of dealing with it. It allowed me to make a lot of
trips that I would have cancelled otherwise, and caused me to
(correctly) cancel a couple that I would have made. There really is
no substitute for depth of experience when it comes to understanding
what the weather is likely to do, and how it can be handled.

The problem is that such briefings have been getting more and more
rare over the years. More and more briefers simply read you the
computer printout, and those who do attempt to make suggestions are
less and less knowledgeable. The old guys are retiring, and the new
guys are just don't have the same depth and breadth of knowledge.

Michael

On 30 Nov 2004 11:14:32 -0800,
(Michael) wrote:

Roy Smith wrote
I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...

The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
flight plans.

I'm going to reluctantly agree with Roy.

Reluctantly because there is one thing a personal briefing can do that
is very valuable and requires an actual human being - weather
interpretation. As a novice pilot, I learned a lot about weather from
those FSS specialists who took the time to explain what was going on
and suggest ways of dealing with it. It allowed me to make a lot of
trips that I would have cancelled otherwise, and caused me to
(correctly) cancel a couple that I would have made. There really is
no substitute for depth of experience when it comes to understanding
what the weather is likely to do, and how it can be handled.

The problem is that such briefings have been getting more and more
rare over the years. More and more briefers simply read you the
computer printout, and those who do attempt to make suggestions are
less and less knowledgeable. The old guys are retiring, and the new
guys are just don't have the same depth and breadth of knowledge.

Michael

I'm a Duat guy myself. I was, unfortunately, one of those that
continually got briefings that were "reading sessions". There is
another issue, also. Where I live (outside of Philly), the summers
are typically very hazy. The degree of haze varies significantly from
area to area. Everytime I would call, I would get a "VFR not
recommended". When I was a student, I scrubbed a number of flights
before my instructor explained to me that yes, weather is very
important, but if you stay on the ground every time these guys say VFR
not recommended, you'll never fly. If anything happens, I would
rather hang my hat on a Duat briefing that shows acceptable weather
than on an FSS breifing that contains that ominous warning.
Rich Russell

Hi Marco,
According to Jepp, the Northeast Chart Service lists at $330. If you buy
the East and NorthEast Airway Express services separately, they end up
costing about $30 more... I'm not sure where you're getting them for $255,
but that seems more heavily discounted than what I saw, which for example
on MyPilotStore.com was $320.

However, since I can pretty much buy or download any needed plates readily,
I don't subscribe to all 4 NorthEast NOS books. I subscribe to #1 and #2,
which gets me ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI, NY, and NJ, and covers 90% of my
flying area (and then some). It also covers me for the Long Island/CT
issue.

I guess this is the biggest reason why it ends up being so much less
expensive for me. I don't need the same coverage in NOS as I would with
Jepp.

If I am planning a trip to PA or DC, I will pick up or order the current #3
or #4 as needed, or maybe even just download my destination plate and a few
nearby alternatives on the route... If I go that far out of NY, it will be
a planned trip, and if I expect to leave early in the AM or late in the PM
when I can't get a chart from my FBO, I can take a ride the day before, or
order it online in advance... My FBO is staffed from 7am until 7pm
(sometimes later), so it's not usually an issue. So far, in the year since
I got my instrument rating, I bought #4 twice.

Jepp's Airway Express service for East has the same LI/CT problem as NOS,
so I'd still have to buy the $330 Northeast Chart Service subscription.

Instead, I am paying $16.50 every 2 months ($99/yr) for updated IFR Enroute
L27/28, TERPS NE Vol 1 & 2, and an A/FD. Seems like a no-brainer as far as
price is concerned... Also, the NOS Plates that I'm getting last 56 days,
not 28.

If you add to that the $10 or $15 to go pick up a #3 or #4 once or twice a
year when I plan a long-distance trip, we're still talking less than half
the Jepp price...



"Marco Leon" mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote in :

Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps
for the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for
me since I normally get in the air after work, I would get a
subscription to NOS. Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4
NOS books @ $4.25 each. That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals
$221/year. If you factor in the shipping for the charts @ $5 per
shipment, that's $65.

So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).

I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
* if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every
time you may do an approach
* the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g.
missed in Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
* preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp
better for their intuitive features
* what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real
IFR flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)

NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.

Marco Leon
(no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
discounts on charts...)



"Judah" wrote in message
.. .
Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.

During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
charts and plates.

He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
superior to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I
looked at it for myself, I just can't figure out how to justify
spending all that extra money for really not all that extra features.

So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out
the extra money?

Subscription from NACO is $19.95/yr per book, 7 issues plus change notices.
Four books is $80/yr. I believe that includes postage.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco...eroOct2004.pdf




"Marco Leon" mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote in message
...
Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps
for
the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for me
since
I normally get in the air after work, I would get a subscription to NOS.
Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.
That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.

So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).

I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
* if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every time
you may do an approach
* the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g. missed
in
Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
* preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp
better
for their intuitive features
* what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real IFR
flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)

NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.

Marco Leon
(no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
discounts on charts...)



"Judah" wrote in message
.. .
Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.

During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
charts and plates.

He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
superior
to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
money for really not all that extra features.

So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
extra money?

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:30:19 -0500, "Marco Leon"
mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote:

That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year.


Isn't it every 56 days? That would cut your cost in half.

z

In article , SFM wrote:
Roy: This is why I switched to the Express packs. NO 8 week updates or end
of year checklists, just every 56 days throw out the old and insert the new
just like NOS. It costs a little extra but it saves me time and I would
rather be flying than updating Jepp plates.

Yes, you're right about that. In fact, I did the Express Pack thing
for a while. It's a reasonable compromise.