Hidden costs of ethenol

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message ...


And in North america, virtually everything you eat, and much of what
you buy otherwise, has corn in it in one form or an other. Corn
starch, corn syrup etc. Using corn to make ethanol for fuel drives the
price of everything else made with corn up, as well as everything that
is an option to use in place of corn. A cousin works for a large
multinational cookie manufacturer. Over the last several months, the
ingredient costs have gone up 30%, mostly corn sweetener pricing, but
a lot of other stuff too, attributed to CORN PRICING.



And don't forget OIL makes the fertilizer in most cases. The 'food chain' in the USA is pretty much oil, corn (or soy),
cattle, mcdonalds...

"william" wrote in message news:fbzgi.11573$xy.11256@trnddc06...
One more thing I would like to point out on the corn- food-ethanol debate is that making ethanol uses only the starch
in corn. The protein is still there and is used as a high quality feed, called dried distillers grains or DDG. It is
mostly feed to cattle. The most effecient ethanol plants have a feed lot next to them and the solids are feed wet to
the cattle saving the energy usually used to dry the stuff. The cattle manure is used as a source of methane for
energy to run the ethanol plant. It still requires additional energy, but every savings helps. There are other
byproducts of the process to, but my point is a lot of the corn still is used as food. The main study the media likes
to quote to discredit ethanol was done about 20 years ago and is hopelessly out of date.



It is hopeless alright...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:22:58 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:

william wrote:
snip
I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
will continue so.


That really is the point I was reaching for.
Not just complaining about corn.

And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).

I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
is made from it, made with it, or transported.

And THAT includes just about everything.

So I'm really curious...
What comes next?

BUT as the use of alternative fuels becomes wide spread we will use
less crude and the price will go down. BUT if we are sustaining that
lower gas consumption then the refineries will not produce as much
which will force the price back up. Also as production drops below the
max output for a refinery the efficiency goes down making it more
expensive to produce a gallon of gas which forces the price up.

I would expect the production of gas to be reduced (supply and demand)
to the point where it keeps pace with the price of the fuels replacing
it. However this will force the price of crude down and I would expect
the price of crude to drop considerably which will make the oil
exporting states unhappy so they are likely to reduce production. BUT
although this could raise the price of crude they will be selling far
less of the stuff.

As an interesting side note, if you calculate how much crude is used
to produce fuel for cars and truck, see how much is imported, and then
look at increasing fuel efficiency in cars and trucks we only need to
raise the overall fleet MPG from the current 20.5 (roughly) to about
27 we would be saving more crude than we import. That is unlikely to
happen, but it's still an interesting figure.

In reality we'd still be importing a substantial amount of crude, but
we'd no longer be dependent on having to import it. That *should* mean
a lower price for crude that could be used for things other than gas
and that still takes a lot of crude.

So, it's not a given that everything would *have* to go up in price
but It doesn't mean it wouldn't

For one I would expect those production methods that are less
expensive and more profitable would probably *eventually* replace
the bulk of corn used in the production of ethanol which would result
in one whale of a political battle.

As I've mentioned before, using hemp we could produce more alcohol at
far less cost than using corn. It's also a much more robust crop, that
can grow under widely varying conditions unlike corn. it can also be
grown on land unsuitable for most other crops thus taking less land
out of the food production chain.

To the farmer soybeans, navy beans, wheat, and sugar beets are far
more profitable than raising corn. They are also no where near as hard
on the soil.OTOH navy beans and even beets are quite dependent on the
growing conditions. Of course I'd hate to be trying to raise much of
anything down in Georgia this year. Then there's Texas and the
surrounding states suffering from too much of a good thing but the
drought is certainly over...for the time being.



Richard

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
k.net...

I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".

So not only do we pay more for less power in our auto fuel...


http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...nd-for-ethanol

"Blueskies" wrote in message
. net...

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
1. I had a guy walk up to me at the glider field and say, "I just put
$300 worth of fuel in my C-182". "What does it cost to be a glider
pilot?" (A whole lot less, I told him)

2. I bought an old motorcycle that can replace 75% of my driving. It
gets 55 MPG city driving.

3. I'm strongly advocating winch launch for gliders. ($5 launch = 5 hour
flight)

Obviously, gliders aren't an option if you need A to B transportation.
But, if you just fly for fun, gliders are a lot of fun for a lot less
money.

Bill Daniels



5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is
the winch line?


A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line.
The winch launch gets you high enough to catch thermals. Then, in the
western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some flights
last over 10 hours.

In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so
they can practice aerobatics.
Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in less
than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb at 3000 - 5000 FPM.

If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat
nervious passerger.)
Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4

I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.

Bill Daniels

Blueskies wrote:

Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...



That IS why I brought it up - twice now.

Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
literate news group on the net.


Richard

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
ink.net...
Blueskies wrote:

Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...



That IS why I brought it up - twice now.

Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
literate news group on the net.


Richard

Very good point!

Peter

It is hopeless alright...


Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
reduce our energy imbalance there is always a silver lining...

denny

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:53:23 -0700, Lou wrote:


Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
change over
to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
that
will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
base.


It's been publicized but apparently our congress critters missed that.
Even with higher yields of corn and in production we don't have enough
total farm land available to grow enough corn to produce enough
alcohol to support a major switch to alcohol as a fuel. That's the
main reason they talk about switch grass and bio generation of
alcohol. However the Canadian's have it right using hemp which is
easy to grow and gives a much higher yield of Alcohol while consuming
much less energy to grow and process. Again, our government has a
hangup with the word hemp, associating all hemp with the recreational
stuff.
BTW, we already have a 50 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol
while we are subsidizing the growing of corn and alcohol processing
plants.


Lou


http://www.gulfethanolcorp.com/gulf_..._investors.htm


Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than
$25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached a record of $75.35 per
barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela,
multiplied by the ever increasing world demand, there’s no indication
that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.

Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the
world by storm.

“Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth.” - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.


Take a look at recent investments made by some of the richest and most
successful people in the world:

* Bill Gates, the richest man in America, allocated $84 million
into Pacific Ethanol, Inc.
* Sir Richard Branson, chairman of the Virgin Group and worth an
estimated $3 billion, has plans to invest $300 to $400 million to
produce and market this promising alternative fuel. He says, “This is
the win-win fuel of the future.”
* Vinod Khosla, “guru” of Silicon Valley, co-founder of Sun
Microsystems, and one of ethanol’s most vocal advocates, has invested
millions of his own dollars in private companies involved in the
development of ethanol.

* What’s more, industry titans are recognizing the value of
providing the American public with an alternative. Wal-Mart announced
that it is considering offering corn-based ethanol at its 383 gas
stations throughout the U.S.
* Not to be left behind, several Big Oil companies, including Shell
and Exxon Mobil, are funding ethanol research.

A booming industry, to be sure! It will only get bigger from here…

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured
up by some pro-U.S. idealists. Not at all. Brazil has turned that vision
into reality, where 70% of the vehicles in that country are sustained on
ethanol. Brazil's ethanol plan has successfully replaced imported oil
worth an estimated $120 billion. To put it into perspective, this would
translate to a savings of about $2 trillion for an economy equivalent in
size to the U.S.
* INCREASED INCOME TO U.S. FARMERS: In terms of economics, there is
no clearer choice for the American public. It would mean higher farm
incomes and we would see a steep increase in rural employment.
* THE TECHNOLOGY’S IN PLACE NOW: The technology to run cars on
ethanol already exists. General Motors alone has built more than 1.5
million ethanol-compliant vehicles.
* IT’S RIDING THE “GREEN WAVE”: And let’s not ignore the fact that
ethanol is believed to be much more environmentally friendly than our
current petroleum. Many experts agree that a switch from gasoline to
ethanol could significantly reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, some
say by as much as 80%. Ethanol’s appeal extends throughout interest
groups. The U.S. government, American car manufacturers,
environmentalists and the agriculture industry are all strong supporters
of this alternative fuel.

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message nk.net...

Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than $25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached
a record of $75.35 per barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela, multiplied by the ever
increasing world demand, there’s no indication that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.

Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the world by storm.



I have no problems with ethanol, I just have a problem with 'the industry's trying to pawn off ethanol laced gasoline as
'gasoline'...

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message . ..

5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is the winch line?


A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line. The winch launch gets you high enough to
catch thermals. Then, in the western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some flights last over 10
hours.

In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so they can practice aerobatics.
Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in less than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb
at 3000 - 5000 FPM.

If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat nervious passerger.)
Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4

I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.

Bill Daniels


I know Torry Pines will (or used to) launch you right over the cliffs so you could ridge soar, but I am now in MI, and
it would take a pretty long winch to get high enough to fly around for 5 hours...