New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted

In article c74a62c0-9efe-4e1b-8a84-
, says...
On Oct 20, 4:15*pm, tankfixer wrote:
In article 26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
,
says...





On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/IRAQ101408.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Very unlikely.
Maybe a three man team..

I have this vision of a bunch of troops being bungeed to the back of
the airplane and technically riding "outside" until time to release.
Hey, if they can lift a buncha SEALs from place to place on a line
under a Seahawk like sunfish on a stringer, then why not?


Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?



--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

On Oct 20, 1:27*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard wrote:



On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/IRAQ101408.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
what you are talking about?

BB

I had the same problem, went to AW direct. The literature says it can
carry 12 passengers

New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted

Oct 14, 2008

David A. Fulghum

Part of the Iraq’s military future airborne strike capability appears
to be flying out of a civilian airport in Fort Worth, Texas.

Two Cessna Grand Caravan 208Bs, (http://www.cessna.com/caravan/grand-
caravan.html) armed with a pair of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles each,
have been photographed flying out of Meacham Airport earlier this
month. The field officially has no military presence, but it is the
home of a major ATK Integrated Systems major modification facility and
the armed Cessna Caravan is one of its projects.

The capability was referred to - without specificity - when U.S. Air
Force Col. Michael Wobbema, former chief of staff for the Coalition
Air Force Transition Team said late last year that “there will be an
armed variant...that will come on line.” In fact, the order of battle
for the Iraqi Air Force now includes three Caravans for intelligence,
surveillance and reconnaissance, three armed Caravans, two Hawker/
Beechcraft King Air light transports and six King Airs 350s also for
ISR.

Further operating out of ATK’s shops are C-130s, a deHavilland Dash-8
and a Swearingen Metro IV all heavily modified for clandestine ISR
operations, according to sources with knowledge of the field’s
operations.

If fact, U.S. officials admit that they are helping the Iraqis build a
counterinsurgency force with strike capabilities. In December the
Iraqi Air Force will receive the first three armed Caravans - with
laser designators for the missiles - followed by two more in early
2009, says USAF Brig. Gen. Brooks Bash, current chief of the Coalition
Air Force Transition team.

In addition, ATK modified the U.S. Air National Guard’s 11 RC-26B
aircraft (including those for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and
California) to provide night-mission support for search and rescue and
law enforcement support. They carry electro-optical and infrared (EO/
IR) sensors, situational-awareness displays for the air crew, high-
resolution digital imagery and video and communications data transfer
links. That may have generated the local rumor that the Caravans are
part of the Homeland Security Department operation detailed to
protecting President Bush when he visits his Crawford, Texas, ranch.

But tank-killing Hellfires wouldn’t be the weapon of choice for law
enforcement. And Iraq’s air force already is flying a number of
unarmed Caravans for ISR, V.I.P. transport and pilot training, and it
is expecting armed Caravans by year’s end.

In July, the Multi-National Security Transition Command Iraq signed
over eight Cessna 172s as primary trainers and three Caravan 208s as
advanced trainers to the Iraqi Defense Ministry for the air force’s
training program at Kirkuk Air Base. The plan is to train 130 new
pilots annually. The service’s projected size is 6,000 airmen and 133
aircraft by late 2009.

The olive-drab Caravans have with no national markings, but they do
carry an off-colored rectangle near the top of the vertical stabilizer
where Iraq puts national flag markings on its military aircraft. The
aircraft are fitted with an EO/IR surveillance sensor ball offset to
the left side of the aircraft. The engine exhaust is offset to the
right to avoid interference with the IR sensor. The sensor ball,
targeting pods and missiles will be the same as those on the Predator
unmanned aircraft. A pod on the leading edge of the right wing of the
Caravan holds a weather radar. The aircraft also has missile warning
sensors on the tail and nose and what appears to be chaff and flare
dispensers for self-protection.

Meanwhile, Iraqis are acquiring eight Hawker/Beechcraft King Air 350s
(similar to the C-12) for longer-endurance, advanced ISR operations
and carrying full-motion video and forward-looking IR in a sensor
ball.

The United States has used C-12R Horned Owl aircraft with central
APY-8 Lynx radars and EO sensors have been used for roadside-bomb
detection and other missions associated with the U.S. Army’s Task
Force Odin to attack and capture insurgent leadership.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...p?channel=defe....

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:


Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.


Peter Skelton

On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard

wrote:

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

Peter Skelton

specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people

Weights:
Empty Weight
1,746kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight
3,629kg
Maximum Load
1,900kg
Fuel Capacity
1,267l
Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
3,985kg


http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html

In message , tankfixer
writes
Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?

Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
Ford died of his injuries.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:19:14 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:

Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

Mathias Rust, in what is probably the most produced airplane ever, the
Cessna 172. Took the private pilot check ride in one, back in 65.

Casady

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:29 -0400, Peter Skelton
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:


Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

3500/12 = 291.7 lbs each. I weigh 130. You ask me to carry 161 lb and
I will report you to your superiors as dangerously nuts. The very
thought makes me glad I joined the Air Force. If you weigh 161 you
won't pack the 130 either. How many do the skydivers shoehorn in?Note
that in 90 years, no army ever found soldiers suitable to carry a 75
lb M2HB machine gun, although there in a tripod mount. They always
travel by truck or helo.

Casady

"tankfixer" wrote in message
...
Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do exactly
that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
specs.

Very unlikely.

Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the capability
was always there.

Maybe a three man team..

On Oct 20, 3:15*pm, tankfixer wrote:
In article 26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
,
says...



On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/IRAQ101408.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Very unlikely.
Maybe a three man team..

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Hey, we were not going to argue with a Marine Major who had no neck,
was about 5 foot something, and sounded like he had a throat full of
gravel. And was loud.

He was the same guy when we had the check point that Marines had to
like the MC-130H Combat Talon II, we were trying to work out how to
deploy them for a pretty much low speed non stop run over the target
where the wheels barely touch down. He said, let me know when its 30
knots, then you can take off. We'll be out.

We figured Marine Recon were a rare breed, maybe a little nuts, but a
rare breed.

Always did like the Special Ops community. Some more than others, but
the quiet types were the ones you knew were damn good.

Then again anybody who trusts the AF to test fly an airplane in the
dark.....

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard

wrote:

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

Peter Skelton

specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people

Weights:
Empty Weight
1,746kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight
3,629kg
Maximum Load
1,900kg
Fuel Capacity
1,267l
Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
3,985kg


http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html

Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.

http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746...n_Brochure.pdf

12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.


Peter Skelton