The Swearingen-TEB incident: control issues with twins

Re-Reading the original post on this subject made me realize
something... The plane was on approach not on a departure... If that
makes a difference on the effect of loosing an engine, I do not know.
I would certainly suspect it would make a difference since I would
think on approach engines would be on a low power setting...

On 31 May 2005 22:17:51 GMT, wrote:

My understanding is that the aircraft will tend to roll due to the side
with the failed engine having less lift. My CFI was explaining this to me
some time ago.

Engine failure would require immediate and extreme rudder input and
feathering the props on the failed engine to reduce the drag. He said
something about "Lawn Dart" and that it can happen in a blink of the eye.

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues when one engine fails on approach?


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

On 5/31/2005 6:57 PM, Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

Re-Reading the original post on this subject made me realize
something... The plane was on approach not on a departure... If that
makes a difference on the effect of loosing an engine, I do not know.
I would certainly suspect it would make a difference since I would
think on approach engines would be on a low power setting...

I was assuming he didn't like the approach, and decided to
go around ... then added full power on the remaining engine.

This is assumption on my part, as I have no additional information.


On 31 May 2005 22:17:51 GMT, wrote:

My understanding is that the aircraft will tend to roll due to the side
with the failed engine having less lift. My CFI was explaining this to me
some time ago.

Engine failure would require immediate and extreme rudder input and
feathering the props on the failed engine to reduce the drag. He said
something about "Lawn Dart" and that it can happen in a blink of the eye.

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues when one engine fails on approach?


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

This sounds a little on the macho side. He may be making it sound worse
than it is. With low power there's not that much yaw into the failed
engine. If you get too slow and try to do a go around on one engine you
could sure manage to roll it over.

If you want to understand it .. find a CFI to take you out for a quick
ride and demo minimum controllable airspeed (Vmc) on one engine
for you. There's a red line on the airspeed indicator for Vmc. This
is under set conditions though and in reality can change due to weight,
CG location, altitude. An airspeed below this won't give you sufficient
directional control. Pitching down and removing power gets control
back by increasing airspeed and reducing asymetrical thrust.



wrote in message
...
My understanding is that the aircraft will tend to roll due to the side
with the failed engine having less lift. My CFI was explaining this to me
some time ago.

Engine failure would require immediate and extreme rudder input and
feathering the props on the failed engine to reduce the drag. He said
something about "Lawn Dart" and that it can happen in a blink of the eye.

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues when one engine fails on approach?

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

wrote:
My understanding is that the aircraft will tend to roll due to the side
with the failed engine having less lift. My CFI was explaining this to me
some time ago.


Bull****. If the engine failed on approach when you were already on
final, you wouldn't even notice.
It's the asymetrical thrust that causes the problem..
Not an isste at low RPM. Now if you had to firewall it for a go
around..... that would be a different story.

An engine failure in a twin is far more hazardous on takeoff than on
approach, because the "good" engine is trying to turn the airplane upside
down and frequently succeeds. On approach, with power reduced, it is
sometimes difficult to even sense that an engine has failed. Emphasize
"sometimes." I have no experience with Swearingens and/or how power is set
on approach. Many turboprops have a negative-torque sensor that
automatically feathers the prop on a failed engine...but this is a good
thing, as Martha Stewart might say...no drag on the failed engine side, low
power(?) on the good engine side. Shouldn't result in a 90 degree roll.

Bob Gardner

"R.L." wrote in message
. ..
This is the best latest (Google, 5/31/05, 1700 EDT) on the TEB incident
today.

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?...ZWVFRX l5Mg==

I heard earlier on NY CBS Radio that the pilot reported "engine trouble"
on
approach and that a witness saw the plane making contact with the runway
right-wing-down, almost 90 degrees.

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues
when one engine fails on approach?

unless he just got to slow.. but low power below Vmc should not be that
bad.. unless he pushed it up fast and forgot his Vmc demos.. hard to believe
because I'm sure they are practiced in the SIM on a regular basis

BT

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
An engine failure in a twin is far more hazardous on takeoff than on
approach, because the "good" engine is trying to turn the airplane upside
down and frequently succeeds. On approach, with power reduced, it is
sometimes difficult to even sense that an engine has failed. Emphasize
"sometimes." I have no experience with Swearingens and/or how power is set
on approach. Many turboprops have a negative-torque sensor that
automatically feathers the prop on a failed engine...but this is a good
thing, as Martha Stewart might say...no drag on the failed engine side,
low power(?) on the good engine side. Shouldn't result in a 90 degree
roll.

Bob Gardner

"R.L." wrote in message
. ..
This is the best latest (Google, 5/31/05, 1700 EDT) on the TEB incident
today.

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?...ZWVFRX l5Mg==

I heard earlier on NY CBS Radio that the pilot reported "engine trouble"
on
approach and that a witness saw the plane making contact with the runway
right-wing-down, almost 90 degrees.

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues
when one engine fails on approach?

Maybe he was planning to go around and lost it in the power increase?

"Bob Gardner" wrote in
:

An engine failure in a twin is far more hazardous on takeoff than on
approach, because the "good" engine is trying to turn the airplane
upside down and frequently succeeds. On approach, with power reduced,
it is sometimes difficult to even sense that an engine has failed.
Emphasize "sometimes." I have no experience with Swearingens and/or
how power is set on approach. Many turboprops have a negative-torque
sensor that automatically feathers the prop on a failed engine...but
this is a good thing, as Martha Stewart might say...no drag on the
failed engine side, low power(?) on the good engine side. Shouldn't
result in a 90 degree roll.

Bob Gardner

snip

Judah wrote:
Maybe he was planning to go around and lost it in the power increase?

With one or two engines operating, it's possible to lose it in a high
performance aircraft go-around if you're not prepared for the pitch-up
as power is abruptly added, the airplane is improperly trimmed, you're
dealing with a particularly nasty, gusty wind flowing over some trees
about 50-75 feet high, and you suddenly find yourself a bit slower than
you'd like.

Case in point:

Text:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...05X02197&key=1

Key:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...02LA017&rpt=fi

If those links don't work, search for Pittstown, NJ, Beech, Oct 26, 2001.

I looked over the accident aircraft and couldn't believe my eyes.
Although upside down and the tail bent beyond repair, the passenger
compartment was intact and my mechanic (based at the field) told me the
pilot & his wife walked away shaken, not stirred.

I was sold on Beech products from that day forward. Not that I have any
intention to test the strength of the Beech design, I pray my next
aircraft is either a Bonanza or Baron.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues
when one engine fails on approach?

As you would expect, there is a tendency for the aircraft to yaw towards the
failed engine which then creates a roll in the same direction (secondary
effect of yaw). It's countered with rudder - but the amount required depends
on how much power the engine is producing, and how much airspeed you have.

Multi-engine aircraft have a minimum asymetric control speed (Vmca) (Vmc in
some parts) - below this speed you won't have sufficient rudder authority to
stop the yaw/roll unless you reduce power on the good engine - unfortunately
it's all too common for pilots of twins to get low and slow on one engine,
and then go below Vmca whilst trying to go around on 1 engine - at which
point the aircraft slowly rolls on it's back and everyone dies.

So - the lessons are ...

1. Don't get low and slow on 1 engine, and

2. If you ABSOLUTLELY have to go around on 1 engine, make the decision as
early as possible.

3. Practice these things with an instructor on a regular basis (every 90
days is good)

As previously noted by Bob, on the approach it's often so subtle you don't
even know one has failed.

Even better rule...don't try to go around on one engine. Put it on a
taxiway, on the grass, whatever, but don't try to go around on one. IMHO it
is bad training practice to even suggest to a MEL student that waving off is
a practical alternative.

Bob Gardner

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message
...
I'm a ASEL primary student. What's the skinny on multi-engine control
issues
when one engine fails on approach?

As you would expect, there is a tendency for the aircraft to yaw towards
the
failed engine which then creates a roll in the same direction (secondary
effect of yaw). It's countered with rudder - but the amount required
depends
on how much power the engine is producing, and how much airspeed you have.

Multi-engine aircraft have a minimum asymetric control speed (Vmca) (Vmc
in
some parts) - below this speed you won't have sufficient rudder authority
to
stop the yaw/roll unless you reduce power on the good engine -
unfortunately
it's all too common for pilots of twins to get low and slow on one engine,
and then go below Vmca whilst trying to go around on 1 engine - at which
point the aircraft slowly rolls on it's back and everyone dies.

So - the lessons are ...

1. Don't get low and slow on 1 engine, and

2. If you ABSOLUTLELY have to go around on 1 engine, make the decision as
early as possible.

3. Practice these things with an instructor on a regular basis (every 90
days is good)

As previously noted by Bob, on the approach it's often so subtle you don't
even know one has failed.