Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
In message , Fred the
Red Shirt writes
(BUFDRVR) wrote in message
...
Wrong. The French were using larger than .50 calibre weapons against
troops in
SE Asia a decade before Ed began straffing troops there.

I'll take your word for that. What ammo was used?

20mm HE from Bearcats, at the very least.

Explosive rounds with a [explosive, FF] mass under a certain limit
(Hague or St. Petersburg, can't recall offhand): technical war crime.

St Petersburg was the first such prohibition though the US Army
decided, as a matter of policy, to eschew them as well for the
same reasons, they exacerbated the injuries to men who would
have been disabled by the plain ammunition of the day.

The mass limit was 400 gms, approximately the mass of a 37 mm
cannon.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1914m/gene68.html

My previous statement about the St Pete not being reciprocal was
incorrect, though there is a tendency for alleged crimes to be
tried according to the laws of the nations holding the trial,
regardless of what laws were accepted by the defendant's nation.
Entirely justified, IMHO, so long as it is the decision makers
and not the soldiers in the field who are on trial.

(One of those
ignored issues because everyone found 20mm+ cannon so useful for
shooting at "stuff" and therefore also fired them at people _outside_
trucks, trains, cars, tanks, ships etc.)

It appears that the Prohibition was observed without controversy
from 1868 until WWI when the British began using incindiery (also
banned) ammunition in their aircraft. The Germans protested, but
then withdrew their protest apparently decided they preferred
to use the same themselves.

It would seem that tracers are also banned, but it is hard to
imagine a .50 cal tracer exacerbating injuries to a person,
compared to .50 cal hardball. Is there a difference, historically,
between ammuniton designated as tracer and that designated as
incindiery?


... It appears to have been gently allowed to
fall into abeyance, like only-recently-rescinded laws about it being
legal to shoot Welshmen with bow and arrow in certain British towns
after the hours of darkness, when everyone discovered how useful 20mm
cannon were.

So the British have discovered that the 20mm is useful for shooting
Welshmen after dark?


But more relevant, there is no reason at all why firing ball rounds from
a .50 machine gun at enemy combatants should be less than lawful.
There's a persistent myth that it's illegal to fire .50" at people, and
it just isn't true.

Agreed. The only basis I can find for that myth is the St Petersburg
(and subsequent) declarations, coupled with the assumption that the
ammunition is incindiery or explosive. I found one Usenet article
by a Norwegian named Per who said the standard ammuniton for a
12.7 mm HMG in Norway was HE, and intended for use against helicopters.


It might be possible to claim that firing 'explosive bullets' of under
the proscribed weight is a war crime, which would make every 20mm
strafing run an atrocity: but by the time of Vietnam this fell into
"long-accepted custom" with every nation that could strafe troops having
done so with 20-23mm cannon.


IMHO the prohibition became unworkable as soon as it became lawful
to issue weapons with the previously proscribed ammunition for
any purpose. You simply cannot expect a soldier in combat to
decline to use any weapon at his disposal.

....

Mr Rasimus, in another ng, says that he is unaware that explosive
ammunition has ever been used in .50 cal. Here and there over the
years I have seen references to explosive .50 cal or 12.7 mm ammuntion.
What is the history here?


--

FF

In message , Fred the
Red Shirt writes
Mr Rasimus, in another ng, says that he is unaware that explosive
ammunition has ever been used in .50 cal. Here and there over the
years I have seen references to explosive .50 cal or 12.7 mm ammuntion.
What is the history here?

There was an explosive round developed in .50" for spotting rifles and
ranging machine guns, usually mounted coaxially with tank guns or above
the barrel of recoilless rifles: ballistically matched to the main gun,
you could aim and fire, and be rewarded with a bright flash if you were
on target (thus cueing you to fire a 106mm or 120mm shell rather than a
..50" bullet). Don't think it was used in machine guns, though. (It might
be the source of the "can't shoot .50 at people" story)




More recently, Raufoss in Norway developed a multipurpose round that
didn't require a mechanical fuze and scaled down as far as 12.7mm, and
it's now quite widely used (by the UK and US among many others). It's a
relatively (10-15 years) recent development, but extremely effective.

http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/...Anchor-MP-8889
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ions/mk211.htm

"The standard design of Multipurpose ammunition (20 - 40 mm) consist of
an aluminium nose cap press filled with an incendiary charge on top of
the shell body (heat treated steel) which again is press filled with a
HE charge and an incendiary charge. The projectile can also be equipped
with a tracer and a self-destruct element.

The 12.7 mm Multipurpose projectile differs from the standard design by
using a tungsten carbide hardcore to increase penetration capabilities
and being encased in a copper jacket. Since Multipurpose ammunition is a
fuse-less design and do not have any sensitive primary high explosive
components (only secondary high explosive) it does not have the safety
risk associated with fused projectiles and does not produce dangerous
duds.

Functioning of the Multipurpose projectile is obtained by hitting the
target (light or heavy) inducing a fast deformation of the nose cap
which is press filled with the incendiary charge. Upon reaching the
ignition criteria for the incendiary charge the charge will start
burning and subsequently ignite the HE charge resulting in the
fragmentation of the shell body. Sensitivity is dependent on the
deformation speed of the nose cap and the high speed associated with a
projectile travelling down the trajectory is needed to obtain the
necessary sensitivity. "




--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

First, it is not hard to believe that Kerry confused two or more,
missions, thus misremembering which was the Christmas mission.

Except that he said the memory was "seared into his brain". Kind of hard to get
confused with memories that are "seared".

Wrong.

Traumatic memory is well-known to be highly inaccurate, as well as
extrordinarily clear and vivid.

The clarity and vivid nature of memories 'seared into' a person's
brain is often confused with accuracy. Nothing could be further
from the truth.

The release of adrenalin into the bloodstream has a complex interaction
with the formation of long term memory. To a first approximation memories
of events that immediately precede the 'adrenalin rush' are enhanced
in accuracy at the expense of the accuracy of memories of events observed
while the adrenalin is in the bloodstream.

This goes a long ways toward explaining why eyewitnesses to traumatic
events often have very different memories of a common experience.

--

FF

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

Wrong.

Traumatic memory is well-known to be highly inaccurate, as well as
extrordinarily clear and vivid.

That would be a resonable excuse if we were talking about a traumatic incident,
but just being in Cambodia is much less than a traumatic event.

snip a bunch of stuff that explains why first hand combat accounts are not the
most reliable event reconstruction tools


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message . com...
Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
....

Lemme see now, if you quote "Viet vets" and your own experience in the
Senate testimony under oath that accuses the military in Vietnam of
atrocities, war crimes, violations of the Geneva Convention, etc.
...
knowing (or at least you should have known before becoming the
organization's front-man)

Kerry himself, though at first defensive of Hubbard, apparently
checked
out the accusations and then outed Hubbard him befor the VVAW:

rding to the FBI:

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor_print/1497_0_2_0

Kerry's Commie Friends
By Cliff Kincaid | May 7, 2004

....

The documents on several occasions report that Kerry believed that one
of the founders of VVAW, Al Hubbard, who claimed to be a decorated
Vietnam vet, had never served in Vietnam, and had never been a member
of the military. One document says, "John Kerry again attempted to
have Al Hubbard voted off the executive committee as Kerry stated he
did not think Hubbard ever served in Vietnam or was ever in service."
[Kerry] saw [Hubbard] in July, and according to FBI [files on Vietnam
Veterans Against the War] and the minutes of those meetings, [Kerry]
probably saw him in November [1971] too," Nicosia said.
....


http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1252298.html

Marc Morano
Senior Staff Writer

....

Kerry and Hubbard had a heated argument at the St. Louis meeting in
July that was "witnessed by 200 veterans," according to Nicosia.

Despite the presidential candidate's claim last week that Hubbard had
not hurt the anti-war group's credibility in 1971, Kerry actually
believed otherwise, according to Nicosia.

"There was a big fight with Al Hubbard in which Kerry confronted him
and they were screaming at each other across the hall," Nicosia
explained. Hubbard, who had ties to the radical Black Panthers group,
and Kerry "couldn't have been more opposite personalities," Nicosia
said.

The simmering tension between the two men finally reached a boil in
St. Louis, Nicosia said, with Kerry shouting, "Who are you, Al
Hubbard? Are you even really a veteran?

****

However, Hubbard was NOT a WSI witness.

that they are lying, often not combat vets
and often not vets at all are you not slandering me? (See Burkett's
"Stolen Valor" for evidence on the veracity and qualifications of the
Winter Soldier testimony. --Burkett's work has been thoroughly
peer-reviewed and examined for accuracy.)

...

If you have a copy of the book, perhaps you'd like to post a list of
WSI witnesses whom Burkett claims to debunk. Not organisers, or
supporters, but witnesses, those who gave 'testimony'. I'll
check that list against lists of witnesses and their testimony.


Tell you what, I'll go first. Here's a list of WSI witnesses. You
can tell us which of these Burkett debunked and what he had to say
about them.

Alex Primm, 26, SP/4 (E-4), Public Information Office, 1st Logistics
Command, Headquarters (September 1968 to June 1969)

Allen Akers, 25, Pfc. (E-2), "E" Co., 2nd Bn., 4th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Division (May 1965 to March 1966)

Allan Crouse, 22 (E-4), 3rd Engineers Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division
(January 1969 to December 1969)

Barry Hopkins, 23, 3/39th, 9th Infantry Division (January 1969 to
January 1970)

Bill Perry, 23, Pfc. (E-3), "A" Co., 1/506, 101st Airborne Division
(November 1966 to August 1968)

Carl Rippberger, 23, (E-4), "K" Troop, 3rd Squad, 11th Armored Cav.
Reg., attached to 9th Infantry Division (May 1967 to May 1968)

Charles Leffler, 25, Pfc. (E-3), "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 26 Marine Reg., 9th
Marine Amphibious Brigade, LRRP, attached to 1st and 3rd Marine
Division (September 1968 to September 1969)

Charles Stephens, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 1/327, 101st Airborne Division
(December 1965 to February 1967)

Christopher Simpson, 21, Cpl. (E-4), "E" Co., 2nd Bn., 5th Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Div. (1967-1968)

Christopher Soares, 20, L/Cpl. (E-3), "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (February 1969 to April 1969)

Curtis Wingrodski, 22, SP/4, 59th Scout Dog, 11th Brigade, Americal
Division (March 1969 to October 1969)

David Bishop, 21, L/Cpl., "H" Co., 2nd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division

David Chiles, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4, 25th Infantry Division (January
1968 to December 1968)

David Cohen, Naval Coastal, Division 11 (November 1966 to November
1967)

David Stark, 25, SP/5 (E-5), 524 Military Intelligence Detachment
(October 1967 to October 1968)

Dennis Butts, 24, SP/4 (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12, 25th Infantry Division
and "E" Co., 4/39, 9th Infantry Division (September 1966 to September
1967)

Dennis Caldwell, 24, CWO-2, "A" Trp., 3/17, Air Cav., 1st Aviation
Brigade (October 1968 to October 1969)

Don Pugsley, 23, SP/4, 5th Special Forces (October 1969 to December
1969)

Donald Donner, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 20th Brigade, 86th Combat Engineers
(August 1967 to July 1968)

Don Dzagulones, 23, SP/5, 635th Military Intelligence Detachment,
attached to 11th Infantry Brigade, Americal Division (January 1969 to
December 1969)

Douglas Craig, 22, SP/4, "D" Co., 2nd Bn., 8th Brigade, 1st Air Cav.
Division (December 1968 to August 1969)

Doug Wright, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division

Ed Murphy, 23, Sgt. (E-5), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October
1967 to September 1968)

Ernie Sachs, 27, Captain, Medium Helicopter Squadron 362, Marine Air
Group 36, 1st Marine Division (August 1966 to September 1967)

Eugene Keys, 25, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4 25th Infantry Division (February 1966
to February 1967)

Franklin Shepard, 23, S. Sgt. (E-6), 5/60, 9th Infantry Division
(March 1968 to August 1969)

Fred Bernath, 26, 1st Lt., 101st MP Co., 101st Airborne Division
(December 1968 to October 1969)

Fred Nienke, 21, Sgt. (E-5), "D" Co., 1st Bn., 5th Mor. Reg., 1st
Marine Division (July 1967 to February 1968); 1st Prov. Rifle Co., Mag
36, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st Marine Div. (January 1969 to August 1969)

Gary Keyes, 22, SP/4, "E" Troop, 1st Cav. Reg., 11th Brigade, Americal
Division (April 1969 to March 1970)

Gordon Stewart, 20, Sgt. (E-5), "H" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Div. (September 1968 to September 1969)

Jack Bronaugh, 21, Pvt. (E-1), "E" Btry. 213, 2nd Bn., 27 Marine Reg.;
H & S Bn., 7th Marine POW Compound; 1st Bn., 5th Marine Regiment;
MAC-11, H & MS-11, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st Marine Division (February
1968 to October 1969)

Jack Smith, 27, S/Sgt. (E-6), HQ Battery, 12th Marine Reg., 3rd Marine
Division (January 1969 to December 1969)

James Duffy, 23, SP/5 (E-5), 228 Avn. Bn., 1st Air Cav. Div. (February
1967 to April 1968)

Jamie Henry, 23, Sgt., 1/35 Inf., 3rd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division
(August 1967 to August 1968)

James Mackay, 20, Sgt. (E-5), HHQ 3rd Brigade, 9th Inf. Div. (October
1968 to August 1970)

James Umenhofer, SP/4 (E-4), 2/501, 101st Airborne Division (November
1969 to October 1970)

Jim Weber, 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal
Division (November 1967 to November 1968)

Joe Bangert, 22, Sgt. (E-5), VMO-6, PMAG-39, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st
Marine Division (October 1968 to October 1969)

Joe Galbally, 23, SP/4 (E-4), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October
1967 to April 1968)

John Beitzel, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 4/21, 11th Brigade, Americal Division
(January 1969 to January 1970)

John Birch, 24, Cpl. (E-4), "B" Co., 3rd Shore Party Bn., 4th Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (May 1965 to August 1966)

John Hartner, 26, Sgt. (E-5), H & HD 3rd Brigade, H & HD 2nd Brigade,
4th Infantry Division (November 1969 to August 1970)

John Henry, 26, SP/4, 2/60, 1/11 Artillery, 9th Infantry Division
(March 1968 to February 1969)

John Lytle, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "E" Co., 6/15 Arty., 1st Infantry Division
(August 1967 to March 1969)

John Mallory, 24, Captain, 1st Sq., 11th Arm. Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav.
Division (May 1969 to May 1970)

Kenneth Campbell, 21, Cpl. (E-4), "A" Btry., 1st Bn., 11th Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Div., scouted for "B" Co., 1st Bn., 1st Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Division (February 1968 to March 1969)

Kenneth Ruth, 26, (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav.
Div. (February 1966 to February 1967)

Kevin Byrne, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 42nd Scout Dog, 1st Brigade, 101st
Airborne Division (November 1968 to November 1969)

Kevin Delay, 20, Cpl., H & S Co., 3rd Bn., 1st Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (October 1969 to March 1970)

Larry Brooks, 21, Pfc., 2nd Bn., 7th Marine Reg., 1st Marine Division
(July 1969 to January 1970)

Larry Craig, 29, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry
Division (1966 to 1967)

Mark Lenix, 24, 1st Lt., 1/11th Arty. and 2/39 Infantry, 9th Infantry
Division (1968 to 1969)

Mike Nakayamo, 1st Bn., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division

Michael Damron, 24, Pvt. (E-1), "B" Co., 3rd Tank Bn., 3rd Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (September 1966 to October 1967)

Michael Erard, 29, SP/5 (E-5), 3/503, 173rd Airborne Brigade (April
1969 to March 1970)

Michael Farrell, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "A" Co., 2/60, 9th Infantry Division
(January 1967 to January 1968)

Michael Kenny, 20, 2nd Bn., 26th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division

Michael Miziaszek, 22, SP/4 (E-4), 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne
Division, FSSE (December 1968 to January 1970)

Michael McCusker, 29, (2) Sgt. (E-5), Public Information Office, 1st
Marine Division (1966 to 1967)

Murphy Lloyd, 27, (2) Sgt. (E-5), "D" Co., 4th Bn., 173rd Airborne
Brigade (February 1967 to February 1968)

Nathan Hale, 23, SP/5, M.I. Detachment, 198 L.I.B., Americal Division
(December 1967 to December 1968)

Orville Carey, 1st Logistics Command

Patrick Ostrenga, "D" Co., 25th Infantry Division (February to
December)

Paul Olimpieri, 23, Cpl. (E-4), "D" Co., 1st Bn., 5th Marine Regiment,
1st Marine Division (1967-1968)

Paul Williams, 24, L/Cpl. (E-3), "A" Btry., 1st Bn., 12th Marine
Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (May 1966 to May 1967)

Robert Clark, 22, L/Cpl. (E-3), "H&S" Co. & "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th
Marine Reg., 3rd Marine Division (May 1969 to May 1970)

Robert S. Craig, 23, Pfc. (E-2), 2nd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (August 1966 to December 1967)

Robert Kruch, 25, Pfc. (E-3), 3/21, 196 LIB, Americal Division

Robert McConnachie, 22, Sgt. (E-5), 2/28th, 1st Infantry (October 1967
to October 1968)

Robert Wiktorski, 22, SP/4 (E-4), "C" Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air
Cav. Div. (May 1968 to May 1969)

Ronald Palosaari, 23, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (1967 to
1968)

Ron Podlaski, 24, Sgt. (E-5), 5th Special Forces Group (April 1968 to
April 1969)

Ron Newton, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 3rd Brigade, HHQ Co., 704 Maintenance Bn.,
4th Infantry Division (July 1966 to June 1967)

Russell Kogut, 22, WO-1, 155 Assault Helicopter Co. (May 1968 to March
1969)

Sam Bunge, 1st Lt., "B" Co., 3/187, 101st Airborne Division (July 1968
to June 1969)

Sam Schorr, SP/4 (E-4), 86th Combat Engineers (September 1966 to
September 1967)

Scott Camile, 24, Sgt. (E-5), 1st Bn., 11th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division

Scott Moore, 26, 1st Lt., 2/39th, 9th Infantry Division (1968 to 1969)

Sean Newton, 24, L/Cpl. (E-3), 3rd Bn., 7th Marine Reg., 1st Marine
Division (February 1966 to December 1966); "D" Co., 1/26, 3rd Combined
Action Group, 3rd Marine Div. (August 1967 to August 1968)

Steve Pitkin, 20, SP/4, "C" Co., 2/239, 9th Infantry Division (May
1969 to July 1969)

Steve Noetzel, 31, SP/4, 5th Special Forces Group Augmentation (May
1963 to May 1964)

Steve Rose, 26, U.S.N. Corpsmen (E-5), HQ Bn., 4th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Division (December 1966 to December 1967)

Ted Eckert, 21, Sgt. (E-5), MAG-16; Support Group-17, 1st Marine Air
Wing, 1st Marine Division (July 1969 to August 1970)

Thomas Heidtman, 26, Pfc. (E-3), 3rd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (October 1966 to November 1967)

Timon Hagelin, 21, SP/4 (E-4), Graves Registration Platoon, 243 Field
Serv. Co., 1st Logistics Command (August 1968 to August 1969)

Vernon Shibla, 27, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry
Division (1966 to 1967)

Walter Hendrickson, 22, Pfc (E-2), "F" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine
Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (November 1968 to April 1969)

William Bezanson, 24, Pfc., 4/3, 11th Brigade, Americal Division and
123rd Aviation Bn. (1967 to 1968)

William Hatton, 23, Cpl. (E-4), Engineer Mn. Plt., FLSG Bravo, 3rd
Marine Div. (October 1968 to September 1969)

William Rice, 21, SP/4, 3/47th and HQ, 3rd Brigade, 9th Infantry
Division (January 1969 to January 1970)


Personally, I find Bangert's story rather hard to believe. But if
in 1971 I had heard a similar story about the VC, I would not have
doubted it for a minute.

--

FF