Israeli Air Force to lose Middle East Air Superiority Capability to the Saudis in the near future

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message
...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the
Arab
side to this day.

Matt, this is nonsence.

It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make the whole
topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.

See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov, published in
the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August 2001: it reveals
almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through the 1960s and 1970s.
Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy (currently senior test pilot at
Sukhoi) were there and have flown MiGs in Egyptian markings.

There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom
line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce Capabilty to fight
while IAF turned to ground support missions only at the end.

Even more nonsence.

The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s and that
was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They (the Egyptians)
went though a very painfull process of re-learning the basics of the
air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of Attrition. During this
process they re-wrote most of the Soviet combat manuals - especially those
for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In 1970 the Soviets still had the same
approach to the quesitons of gunnery training and air-to-air combat like
before the Six Day War. By 1972, however, even they started teaching the
Syrians accordingly (only not their own pilots).

Could you ask yourself why?

And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every IAF
Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for manually aimed
anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber machine guns on turrets,
destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.

This is laughable. Where is this from?

Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian "War
Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of Damascus, or?

Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.

The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against the SAM
batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were flown on the
morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s, two by ZSU-23-4s,
and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs in exchange.

The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e., there
are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.

Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according to
this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to Arab
experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.

Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important targets
that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth risking anything to
take out. The ones further south could be flown around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be reloaded
(about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore them and go for
strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that war when they were in
the way of that.

Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their forehead
trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know where these
should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5 ("Plan 5" or
something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe for the unit better
known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss in a single mission). Then
they learned the lesson and started flying interdiction strikes around the
Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt.
Nevertheless, their Skyhawks had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and
their losses (not only to the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were
staggering - until the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF
was free to maneuver.

Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark it is
totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes to boot. It
makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.

And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by accident?

If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78 Standard
ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late 1980s...

The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV, capable of
cruising at a very low speed for hours over the battlefield and then
targeting only the radars specifically programmed into its seeker head, by a
near vertical "kamikaze-style" dive on their antennas.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according to the
Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for proof of Soviet
Envolvement.

You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967, and
this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty. During this
war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and these took no part
in fighting against Israel at all.

The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the end of
the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought (actually) 1967-1973
(officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the pike in March 1970, when a
whole Soviet air defence divison was deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat
expelled most of the Soviet instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there
were not many of them left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped
with MiG-25Rs) was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and
flew only a handfull of sorties before the armistice.

Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets flew no
air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles, Noth Koreans,
Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British - did, just no Soviets.

BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war with
Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two were killed
while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying MiG-25s - all in air
combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot down while flying MiG-27 by
Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.

In exchange they shot down nothing.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Tom Cooper wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and
would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in
the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for
the
Arab
side to this day.

Matt, this is nonsence.

It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make
the whole topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.

See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov,
published in the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August
2001: it reveals almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through
the 1960s and 1970s. Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy
(currently senior test pilot at Sukhoi) were there and have flown
MiGs in Egyptian markings.

There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about
such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce
Capabilty to fight while IAF turned to ground support missions only
at the end.

Even more nonsence.

The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s
and that was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They
(the Egyptians) went though a very painfull process of re-learning
the basics of the air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of
Attrition. During this process they re-wrote most of the Soviet
combat manuals - especially those for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In
1970 the Soviets still had the same approach to the quesitons of
gunnery training and air-to-air combat like before the Six Day War.
By 1972, however, even they started teaching the Syrians accordingly
(only not their own pilots).

Could you ask yourself why?

And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every
IAF Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for
manually aimed anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber
machine guns on turrets, destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War
Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.

This is laughable. Where is this from?

Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian
"War Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of
Damascus, or?

Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.

The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against
the SAM batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were
flown on the morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s,
two by ZSU-23-4s, and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs
in exchange.

The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e.,
there are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill
zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.

Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according
to this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to
Arab experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.

Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important
targets that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth
risking anything to take out. The ones further south could be flown
around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and
become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be
reloaded (about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore
them and go for strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that
war when they were in the way of that.

Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their
forehead trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know
where these should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5
("Plan 5" or something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe
for the unit better known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss
in a single mission). Then they learned the lesson and started flying
interdiction strikes around the Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas
on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt. Nevertheless, their Skyhawks
had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and their losses (not only to
the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were staggering - until
the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF was free to
maneuver.

Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from
about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark
it is totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes
to boot. It makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they
need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to
take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.

And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by
accident?

If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78
Standard ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late
1980s...

The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV,
capable of cruising at a very low speed for hours over the
battlefield and then targeting only the radars specifically
programmed into its seeker head, by a near vertical "kamikaze-style"
dive on their antennas.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according
to the Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for
proof of Soviet Envolvement.

You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967,
and this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty.
During this war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and
these took no part in fighting against Israel at all.

The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the
end of the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought
(actually) 1967-1973 (officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the
pike in March 1970, when a whole Soviet air defence divison was
deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat expelled most of the Soviet
instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there were not many of them
left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped with MiG-25Rs)
was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and flew only
a handfull of sorties before the armistice.

Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets
flew no air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles,
Noth Koreans, Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British -
did, just no Soviets.

BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war
with Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two
were killed while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying
MiG-25s - all in air combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot
down while flying MiG-27 by Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.

In exchange they shot down nothing.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified information
on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to this day.
There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no IAF pilot,
no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had
been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I
can't access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized
for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it correctly.



************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name.
Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets.


I found it for you.

This is what was written in the old IAF site:


http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dl...3.3.6.3.3.html

One of the best known dogfights of the Israeli-Egyptian War of
Attrition was the encounter with MiG-21's flown by Soviet pilots. On
the afternoon hours of June 30th 1970, Israeli Phantoms attacked an
Egyptian radar installation at Suhuna, near the Gulf of Suez, with
other Phantoms and Mirages providing air cover. Soon enough, 6
quartets of Egyptian MiG-21's, flown by Soviet pilots, were scrambled
against the Israelis. In a matter of seconds, the scene was that of a
massive air brawl, which resulted in 5 MiG's being shot down - 3 by
Mirages and 2 by Phantoms

-

Last week the IAF launched a new site and at least for now there isn't
an English section in it.

Here you can find confirmation for the downed soveit pilots story (in
Hebrew):

http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...ntPageNumber=2

http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...ntPageNumber=2



That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you simply
snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you posted. Should I
put back those quotes I retain the posts I download for the highest number
of days one can enter in that option on OE, I think that is 9,999 days. My
sent copies of all posts is automaticaly kept and I could find it there as
well till I decide it is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for
most posts and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem
it important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop executing
message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days Delete
Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE. So I
unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual arts (NY
School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every professor would have
called 1990 still recently. The book was written and published (I do have a
copy of it) in 1990, the source is documented and if you check the
documentation out, the second step of researching a topic. That is one
reads it in a footnoted or endnoted source and then goes to the source that
the author used. You would find it was infact declasified only the prior
year 1989. A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it
has had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I was
taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after the war
using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War. Later many
mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved the conculusions of
those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter capacity of the RAF at the
time of the Munich Conference. The first set of documents indicated 20
times the number of fighters then were really there and usefull. That
document came out just after the end of the war. 15 years later a military
historian after talking with mechanics at various air fields at that time,
found a flaw in how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW
I Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters. Planes
being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders of the Air
Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents that had access to
the documents and wanted them to think Britain was a lot better armed and
ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for less
than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians usually leave
anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as it is too knew to
uncover the historical parts of it other then at the most trivial levels.' -
Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He escaped
from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII and returned to
his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that famous spring of freedom
published 2 books he had hidden from the Communists then as they fell to the
Warsaw Pack was away on a lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of
that country and came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical
Rehab for the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at
their Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers that had
too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came into being during
that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

Quant wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified
information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to
this day. There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward
about such to this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting
unprovable things. Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified
and appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the
limit" had been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle
description, so the declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5
downed MiG-21s 3 were downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The
pilots of Mirages we Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the
pilots of F-4Es we Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots
and ask them :-) or do some "googling". You'll also probably get
it at "http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history".
Unfortunately I can't access it at home - the site designers so
heavily "optimized for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it
correctly.




************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*


************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my
domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets.


I found it for you.

This is what was written in the old IAF site:


http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dl...3.3.6.3.3.html

One of the best known dogfights of the Israeli-Egyptian War of
Attrition was the encounter with MiG-21's flown by Soviet pilots. On
the afternoon hours of June 30th 1970, Israeli Phantoms attacked an
Egyptian radar installation at Suhuna, near the Gulf of Suez, with
other Phantoms and Mirages providing air cover. Soon enough, 6
quartets of Egyptian MiG-21's, flown by Soviet pilots, were scrambled
against the Israelis. In a matter of seconds, the scene was that of a
massive air brawl, which resulted in 5 MiG's being shot down - 3 by
Mirages and 2 by Phantoms

-

Last week the IAF launched a new site and at least for now there isn't
an English section in it.

Here you can find confirmation for the downed soveit pilots story (in
Hebrew):



http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...=HE&lobbyID=69
&folderID=78&docfolderID=184&docID=18175&currentPa geNumber=2



http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...=HE&lobbyID=69
&folderID=78&docfolderID=184&docID=18173&currentPa geNumber=2



That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you
simply snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you
posted. Should I put back those quotes I retain the posts I download
for the highest number of days one can enter in that option on OE, I
think that is 9,999 days. My sent copies of all posts is
automaticaly kept and I could find it there as well till I decide it
is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for most posts
and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem it
important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop
executing message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days
Delete Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE.
So I unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to
forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual
arts (NY School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every
professor would have called 1990 still recently. The book was
written and published (I do have a copy of it) in 1990, the source
is documented and if you check the documentation out, the second
step of researching a topic. That is one reads it in a footnoted or
endnoted source and then goes to the source that the author used.
You would find it was infact declasified only the prior year 1989.
A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it has
had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I
was taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after
the war using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War.
Later many mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved
the conculusions of those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter
capacity of the RAF at the time of the Munich Conference. The first
set of documents indicated 20 times the number of fighters then were
really there and usefull. That document came out just after the
end of the war. 15 years later a military historian after talking
with mechanics at various air fields at that time, found a flaw in
how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW I
Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters.
Planes being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders
of the Air Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents
that had access to the documents and wanted them to think Britain
was a lot better armed and ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for
less than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians
usually leave anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as
it is too knew to uncover the historical parts of it other then at
the most trivial levels.' - Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace
University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He
escaped from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII
and returned to his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that
famous spring of freedom published 2 books he had hidden from the
Communists then as they fell to the Warsaw Pack was away on a
lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of that country and
came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical Rehab for
the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at their
Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers
that had too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came
into being during that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down
ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

So then by your own statement the IAF was supperior to the Soviets?

I may say I stand corrected on one thing though, I assumed that the
discussion was about the war time '67 and the War on Yom Kippur. If these
IAF pilots shot down Soviet Piloted Migs they were better pilots as the
Israelis fight most of their air to air battles with cannon fire not air to
air heat seeking rockets. That requires geting in close and out flying the
enemy planes and the pilots. Israel due to this found ways to reload the
Gpods of their planes much faster than any other nation had. The US sent
their ground crew instructors to study how Iseal in Yom Kippur war put US
planes refuled and reloaded back in the air in 15 minutes when the US ground
crews needed an hour. Israel during the wars often found themeselves with
more Combat ready pilots than planes. Actually it was always that way as
the planes meant buying planes and a lot of spare parts. Not every pilot
could fly 24 * 7 any way for the entire war. So while they refitted the
planes with more fuel, refilled Gpods, and other weapons used up, they often
changed pilots allowing the pilot that already flew 1 to 5 missions to get
some rest and a fresh rested pilot took his place. At the start of the '67
war it was fairly well known that for every 5 planes they had 7 pilots.
Because they always had fewer planes then the Arabs they had to have better
pilots.

Now you indicate they outclassed the Soviets who would have sent their best
in not their worst.

LOL to the argument that the IDF was not the best.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:09:21 GMT, (Richard Cranium)
wrote:

When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post,
top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. That's why some
newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the thread.

Oh yeah . . . I almost forgot . . . please **** off!


Your language in unacceptable and juvenile.

PLONK

Al Minyard

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:30:29 GMT, "Gord Beaman" )
wrote:

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

Richard Cranium wrote:
Well if a Schnerd says it, I'm sure that Mr. McCarthy agrees.
Therefore, I disagree and will top post this response in opposition.

BTW - did you really bang Candace??


Of course. I left her smoking.

A cigarette one assumes?

Lord, I hope so.

Al Minyard

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...

snip



This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as
photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.

Aha. Interesting.

So, what you say in essence is this:
- the air battle provoked by the IDF/AF on 30 July 1970 never happened,

- the Soviets never participated in this battle,

- what happened during this battle was never revealed to the public,

- the Syrians were soooooooooooooooooooooooo endlessly dumb that they put
their "War Room" in the middle of the building with the HQs of their Army
during the War in 1973, so that the IDF/AF could find and hit the place.


.....and all of this because you don't know that the details about the air
battle on 30 July were revealed, and because you think that the Soviets did
not took part in the air battle against the Israelis, as well as because you
don't have a slightest clue about where the Syrian "War Room" was, and,
finally, because the US president was threatening to attack the USSR with
nuclear bombs if this would happen?

Do you understand how silly this is?

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...

snip



This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as
photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.

Aha. Interesting.

So, what you say in essence is this:
- the air battle provoked by the IDF/AF on 30 July 1970 never happened,

- the Soviets never participated in this battle,

- what happened during this battle was never revealed to the public,

- the Syrians were soooooooooooooooooooooooo endlessly dumb that they put
their "War Room" in the middle of the building with the HQs of their Army
during the War in 1973, so that the IDF/AF could find and hit the place.


....and all of this because you don't know that the details about the air
battle on 30 July were revealed, and because you think that the Soviets did
not took part in the air battle against the Israelis, as well as because you
don't have a slightest clue about where the Syrian "War Room" was, and,
finally, because the US president was threatening to attack the USSR with
nuclear bombs if this would happen?

Do you understand how silly this is?

Obviously he does not. Just as he does not apparently realize how
laughable his claim that Israel is developing not one but apparently
two new fighter aircraft is, nor his strange assertion that Israel has
developed some kind of new MANPADS. Apparently a confirmed citizen of
Loonland...

Brooks


Tom Cooper

Tom Cooper wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...

snip



This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well
as
photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the
press. The building was the right building and after the war even
Syria admitted it happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.

Aha. Interesting.

So, what you say in essence is this:
- the air battle provoked by the IDF/AF on 30 July 1970 never
happened,

- the Soviets never participated in this battle,

- what happened during this battle was never revealed to the public,

- the Syrians were soooooooooooooooooooooooo endlessly dumb that they
put their "War Room" in the middle of the building with the HQs of
their Army during the War in 1973, so that the IDF/AF could find and
hit the place.


....and all of this because you don't know that the details about the
air battle on 30 July were revealed, and because you think that the
Soviets did not took part in the air battle against the Israelis, as
well as because you don't have a slightest clue about where the
Syrian "War Room" was, and, finally, because the US president was
threatening to attack the USSR with nuclear bombs if this would
happen?

Do you understand how silly this is?

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Dumb to not hide it, how hidden is the Pentagon asshole. You cannot hide
the place that the head military meet for planning and discussing the way a
battle is going. Wars are not fought like they were in pre-civil war days.
They have a need to co-ordinate many branches of the Miltitary to work
together and get the job done.
In Siagon the building used for the General West Morlands briefings and
planning of the operations was marked on many maps and the NVA had the
location, just did not have the means to take it out that way.

The Ministry of Defense houses the Upper Staff of the Ground, Naval, and Air
Forces. It does not have the offices of the Mossad as they fall under a
different ministry (We call ours Departments to be clear on that).
It was in fact during the 6 Day war attacked by Jordanian planes who missed
their targets and the men were in their verson of the Situation Room which
is rhumored to be about 50 feet of Reinforced Concreate below the basement
with a tunnel running to the PM's Offices. Again this is on the military
maps and the Jordanians knew where it was. Israel by the second day of the
'67 war put a fighter cap up 24 * 7 landing planes after another flight took
off and was in position. During the Yom Kippur War they would have a lot
more warning as Syria would have to fly half the lenght of Isreal to reach
it trough heavily protected air space.

Egyptian Version was 2 blocks East of the Presidential Quaters. The
building was known to the IAF as well and in fact preceeding the Six Day War
Mossad had agents working there and that is how they knew about the build
ups that were at first done out of sight of the aircraft that would fly high
altitude reconicense just inside the Borders of Israel. At 10,000 feet one
can and cameras record a lot further than any ground station.

So the location of such buildings is hardly a keepable secret and no nation
thinks that the enemy would be able or dare to try to reach it. Syria never
planned to loose its air supremacy or loose 2 overlapping SAM Sites in that
war to open what they considered an untouchable city.

You will also perhapse remember the vidios of the smart bomb hitting the
Iraqi version of that buidling in the First Gulf Wars Air campaign. The US
kept that film showing on the news to show how great and precice the weapons
being used were. In that case it went down the elevator shaft and blew out
the floor they wanted to destroy totally.




--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...

snip



This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as
photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.

Aha. Interesting.

Not really Tom since you excel in the art of BS. Don't you have some pro-Iranian/anti- Israeli rally to attend someplace? Or do you send your money to Saudi Arabian charities in the hope they will reach Hamas?
Tehran should be a smoking ruin by now, given it is a terror
sponsoring state and lying about its underground nuclear program...
but I guess you are happy that both the US and Israeli are restrained
for the moment- the Israelis caught up in 36 months of Intifada, us
bogged down in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
I only live for the day one of the two or both strike Iran and shoot
their aircraft out of the skies. Better yet, let Iran fire a salvo of
IRBMs at Israel and watch as Tehran disappears in a mushroom cloud.

Rob