A-4 / A-7 Question

"David Casey" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:44:56 -0600, Daryl Hunt wrote:

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just
enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of
the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.

You should email these folks to help them set their records straight:

Air Force History Support Office
Reference and Analysis Branch
AFHSO/HOR


You do it if it's that important to you. History is written by the winners
and we all know that there is only the history that we are fed. Sort of
like, "What was the real reason behind the Civil War". History says that it
was over slavery (depending on whom you speak to), the North says it was
about the Secession of the South. But the South says it was over the one
sided economics of the day. It was definately NOT slavery as Lincoln vetoed
the Emancipation the first time through.

But you keep reading those books and stay inside.

"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in message
...
In article , redc1c4 says...

Daryl Hunt wrote:

(massive snipage, fore and aft)

You missed the P-38 that outlived both the P(F)-51 and the P-47 in the
enventories. I remember seeing a flight outside Denver flying over out
of
Buckley in the late 50s.

so i asked the folks who would know:

To: AFHSO Research
Subject: P 38 Lightning question

when was it pulled from active duty?

their reply:

The P-38 was taken out of front line service in 1949. Many were sold to
private individuals. 50 were sold to Italy and 12 were ceded to
Honduras.

Air Force History Support Office
Reference and Analysis Branch
AFHSO/HOR


and when i asked, (so you couldn't claim they belonged to the "Guards"):

thanks for your quick response... i have one quick follow-up:

were any retained by Reserve units, or does the phrase "taken out of
front
line service" mean that the AF stopped all use at that time?:

they said:

I can find no mention of P-38's being flown by Air Force guard or
reserve
units.

Air Force History Support Office
Reference and Analysis Branch
AFHSO/HOR


so, we're not sure what you were taking/drinking/smoking back
in the day, anymore than we are now. the only possible conclusions
are that it is some gooooooooooood **** or you're hypoxic.

either that, or you're a congenital liar.

redc1c4,
(yes, this is a SPNAK! %-)
--

IIRC when WWII was over the USAF had a choice between scrapping the P-51
or
scrapping the P-47, since the P-51 was a "sexier" plane, they chose the
P-51
(desiginated F-51 later on). When Korea rolled around, the prop jobs were
assigned CAS duties. The Navy and the Marines were using air-cooled
Corsairs
(not the SLUF Daryl, the original one - the bent wing bird) and enjoyerd a
greater success with them than the USAF did.

Gee and to think you made the claim that they went out of service in 1949.
Imagine that. They were used into the 1950s exactly as I stated. The P-38
was as well as the P-51.

Now, answer this one. Why was the Corsair such a sucky bird overall and why
did the Gyrenes drool when a P-38 past them in flight? Why were there so
many ground loops from the F-4U? Time for you to hit the google search
engine and the books once again. But make sure you stay inside. It's not
safe out in the real world.



Why?

Because an air-cooled engine is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire
than a
liquid-cooled engine is.

hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green. They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.



BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support Office is
full of
it...

No, just you.

In article , Daryl Hunt says...


"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINV ALIDBABY wrote in message


IIRC when WWII was over the USAF had a choice between scrapping the P-51
or
scrapping the P-47, since the P-51 was a "sexier" plane, they chose the
P-51
(desiginated F-51 later on). When Korea rolled around, the prop jobs were
assigned CAS duties. The Navy and the Marines were using air-cooled
Corsairs
(not the SLUF Daryl, the original one - the bent wing bird) and enjoyerd a
greater success with them than the USAF did.

Gee and to think you made the claim that they went out of service in 1949.

Apparently, the P-38 Lightning did.

Imagine that. They were used into the 1950s exactly as I stated.

I mentioned the P-51 (F-51), the P-47 and the the Corsair. The P-38 was gone by
then, Daryl.

The P-38 was as well as the P-51.


Daryl, by the Korean war they were gone.

Now, answer this one. Why was the Corsair such a sucky bird overall and why
did the Gyrenes drool when a P-38 past them in flight? Why were there so
many ground loops from the F-4U? Time for you to hit the google search
engine and the books once again. But make sure you stay inside. It's not
safe out in the real world.


Daryl, I don't have to hit Google for this because I'm a bit of a warbird buff.
The Corsair wasn't a sucky bird at all. It had some problems, yes - The long
nose was thought (by the Navy) to be problematic during landings, it had a habit
of throwing oil, but it was generally considered a good fighter and considered
by many to be the best one in the PTO.



Why?

Because an air-cooled engine is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire
than a liquid-cooled engine is.

hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green. They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.

BTW what does that have to do with the statement "Because an air-cooled engine
is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire than a liquid-cooled engine is."?

BTW are you claiming to have worked on P-38s now?

And I trust you know why the P-38s weren't considered a great fighter in ETO and
why most of them were shipped off to the PTO don't you?



BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support Office is
full of it...

No, just you.


So you admit that they were right and that P-38s were withdrawn before the
Korean War then?

-Tom

"For the cause that lacks assistance/The wrong that needs ressistance/For the
Future in the distance/And the Good that I can do" - George Linnaeus Banks,
"What I Live for"

UMA Lemming 404 Local member, 404th MTN(LI)

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:06:14 -0600, Daryl Hunt wrote:

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just
enough to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the
beginning of the Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets,
they stated that the buried many of them to get the new jets.

You should email these folks to help them set their records straight:

Air Force History Support Office
Reference and Analysis Branch
AFHSO/HOR


You do it if it's that important to you. History is written by the winners
and we all know that there is only the history that we are fed. Sort of
like, "What was the real reason behind the Civil War". History says that it
was over slavery (depending on whom you speak to), the North says it was
about the Secession of the South. But the South says it was over the one
sided economics of the day. It was definately NOT slavery as Lincoln vetoed
the Emancipation the first time through.

But you keep reading those books and stay inside.

First, it wasn't a book but an actual email from someone who has access to
that information which red posted which (surprise surprise) showed you to
be wrong.

Second, "history is written by the winners" doesn't apply here as it's US
military history we're talking about and last I checked the US military
wasn't fighting itself during WWII.

Third, if you're so brain dead as to take someone who *knows* what you're
talking about as a bunch of crap it's no wonder you've been laughed at from
one end of Usenet to the other.

Fourth, why are you trying to change the subject to the Civil War when we're
talking about the P-38 and your claim it was still in active service after
1949 when the Air Force itself says you're wrong?

Dave
--
You can talk about us, but you can't talk without us!
US Army Signal Corps!!
www.geocities.com/davidcasey98

B Co, 404th Signal Battalion,
404th Infantry Division (Lemming)
"We *are* UMA!"

"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message
...



I can see you are still lying your ass off. Just where did that
flight
come
from? I doubt if I would remember being able to ID anything except,
"Plane"
in 1949 if even that. Guess Rod Stirling must have been around for
that
phenonema. And since you didn't post the real McCoy URL or Letter so
that
it can be followed up on, you are just making things up once again.

From
http://www.afa.org/magazine/gallery/p-38.asp

"The last P-38 was delivered in September 1945, and the type
was phased out of service in 1949."

Yes. The operative word was Active Duty. Buckley Air Field was Guard up
to
2001. Buckley has just recently become and Active Duty AFB in 2001.

Your information does coincide with the aholes info.

The P-38 was taken out of front line service in 1949. Many were sold to
private individuals. 50 were sold to Italy and 12 were ceded to
Honduras.

Front line usually means Active Regulars. But to make a point, look up
the
reasons that the P-47, P-51 and the P-38 was shoved into holes during
Korea.
In order to get the P-80s, they had to get rid of the Prop Jobs. That
would
place all of them well past 1949. Of course,


The P-38's and P-47's were gone by Korea says the AF says and they
should know. The F-51's did indeed soldier on.

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950. They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get
a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s as
well.


Not according to their unit history, it says they were only
at Kimpo in Korea in 1950 and further says they were all P-80
by that time having converted from P-51's in 1948

They onlyP-38's they had were for training when first formed in Jan 1941

http://www.osan.af.mil/Public/51FW/51fw-history.html

The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during
Korea
before they were replaced.


They were inactivated on 9 Sept 1945 as 97 Fighter Squadron, Two Engine

They reformed as a P-51 unit on 12 Apr. 1947 and were
officially designated 97 Fighter Squadron, Single Engine, on, 15 Aug. 1947

http://www.82ndfightergroup.com/97history.htm

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just
enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.


There's plenty of information about F-51 and Corsair service
but it doesnt seem likely any P-38's or P-47's served in official
roles in Korea.

Keith

Daryl Hunt wrote:

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950. They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s
as well.

The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during Korea
before they were replaced.

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.

Martin Caidin, not that he's necessarily a valid source, stated such in
the intro to his book "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38". Claimed that orders
came down to "dispose" of the Lightnings - but they weren't to be handed
to our nominal allies, the South Koreans, so they were bulldozed into a
ditch and covered over. (He then maunders about how much those planes
would be worth today, yadda yadda yadda.) The implication was that he
had witnessed it personally, but again, it was Caidin, so who knows if
that was true.

-Marc

(actually, my bull**** alarm is pinging - he may have been referring to
the initial withdrawal of US troops from Korea that led the DPRK to
think it'd be safe to invade. I'll have to dig up the book & check.)
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
Daryl Hunt wrote:

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950.
They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s
as well.

The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during
Korea
before they were replaced.

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just
enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of
the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.

Martin Caidin, not that he's necessarily a valid source, stated such in
the intro to his book "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38". Claimed that orders
came down to "dispose" of the Lightnings - but they weren't to be handed
to our nominal allies, the South Koreans, so they were bulldozed into a
ditch and covered over. (He then maunders about how much those planes
would be worth today, yadda yadda yadda.) The implication was that he
had witnessed it personally, but again, it was Caidin, so who knows if
that was true.

-Marc

(actually, my bull**** alarm is pinging - he may have been referring to
the initial withdrawal of US troops from Korea that led the DPRK to
think it'd be safe to invade. I'll have to dig up the book & check.)
--

I suspect he's right BUT that incident happened in 1945 , a lot of other
planes got treated the same way right after the war as the units
were disbanded and the men shipped home.

Keith

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:52:51 +0100, a stranger
called by some "Keith Willshaw"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950. They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get
a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s as
well.

Not according to their unit history, it says they were only
at Kimpo in Korea in 1950 and further says they were all P-80
by that time having converted from P-51's in 1948

Wait! What are doing confusing Daryl with facts? Don't you know that
Daryl was a super-secret special Air Force guy? Who went through
Airborne School dunk? And that he's always right even though the
United States Air Force says he's wrong?

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in message
...
hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It
was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green.
They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I
was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If
the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that
is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the
domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.

BZZTTT, wrong answer. The domestics had counterrotating engines. If you
lost and engine, the torgue factor was lessened. The Exports had right turn
engines only and were prone to spriral when the Left Engine was lost.



BTW what does that have to do with the statement "Because an air-cooled
engine
is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire than a liquid-cooled engine
is."?

BTW are you claiming to have worked on P-38s now?

Give your trolling a rest for a bit.



And I trust you know why the P-38s weren't considered a great fighter in
ETO and
why most of them were shipped off to the PTO don't you?

Do you? Or are you going to post something by a long since dead author.
Newsflash, those are opinions as well.





BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support Office is
full of it...

No, just you.


So you admit that they were right and that P-38s were withdrawn before the
Korean War then?

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

Front line usually means Active Regulars.

Really...what lines do you think the Air National Guard and the U.S.A.F.
Reserve were on when they took part in the Viet Nam War, Gulf War and
other hotspots since then.


But to make a point, look up the reasons that the P-47, P-51 and the P-38 was shoved
into holes during Korea. In order to get the P-80s, they had to get
rid of the Prop Jobs.
That would place all of them well past 1949. Of course,


* You are quite delusional making a statement like this. No one in
their right mind would risk a court martial or worse for such an act.
It would have certainly taken more than one person to dispose of an
aircraft in the manner you are suggesting. How long do think something
like this could be kept a secret?


The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950. They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you get
a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s as
well.


* The 51st Fighter Interceptor Wing duty stations:

Itazuke Air Base, Japan - September 22nd, 1950
Kimpo Air Base, South Korea (K-14) - October 10th, 1950
Itazuke Air Base, Japan - December 10th, 1950
Tsuiki Air Base, Japan - January 15th, 1951
Suwon Air Base, South Korea (K-13) - October 1st, 1951 through to July
26th, 1954

NOTE: The 51st F.I.W. was redesignated 51st Air Base Wing on the 20th of
October, 1971 and activated on the 1st of November, 1970 at Osan Air
Base, Republic of Korea.

The 51st F.I.W. used the following types of aircraft:

Northrop F-61
1948 to 1950

Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star
1948 to 1951

North American F-82 Mustang
1949 to 1950

North American F-86 Sabre
1951 to 1960

Lockheed F-94 Starfire
1954 to 1955

Convair F-102 Delta Dagger
1959 to 1964

I'll leave it at this point. So much for P-38's, which incidentally in
1948 were redesignated F-38. And the same for P-51 (F-51) Mustangs and
the P-47 (F-47) Thunderbolts.


The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during Korea
before they were replaced.


* More Grade 'A' bull****. The 82nd Fighter Wing was established on the
28th of July, 1947. It was organized on the 15th of August, 1947. The
wing was discontinued on the 1st of August, 1948. It was activated on
the the same day. On the 2nd of October, 1949 it was inactivated. On
the 22nd of June, 1972 it was redesignated the 82nd Flying Wing and
subsequently activated on the 1st of February, 1973.


* The 82nd Fighter Wing was assigned to Strategic Air Command. Duty
stations included:

Grenier Field, New Hampshire - August 15th, 1947 to 1st of August, 1948

Grenier Air Force Base, New Hampshire - 1st of August, 1948 to 2nd of
October, 1949.

Williams Air Force Base, Arizona - 1st of February, 1973


* The 82nd Fighter Wing operated the following types of aircraft:

North American P-51D Mustang
1947-1948

North American F-51D Mustang
1948-1949


There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.


* Have you been hearing strange voices again!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers...Chris