Slow Flight

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
wrote:

Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:18:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Shirl wrote:
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

I think what you said makes complete sense.
But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained the
way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than some.
I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know how my
airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the envelope.
Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?

No. You never really want to feel completely "comfortable" in the
airplane. You always want to be performing on that "edge" of awareness
when flying that keeps you ahead of the "comfortable" area and more into
the "alert" area. In other words, the correct mental attitude while
flying is one of being relaxed, but on guard and alert....just a bit on
edge as they say......to put it bluntly...SHARP!
Just an aside; beware of the fact that you "don't like" flying near the
edge of the envelope. The normal reaction should be more associated with
an "increased awareness and alertness" when flying in this area. It's ok
for the comfort level to go down as you enter this area, but it
shouldn't go so far down that you actually dislike flying on the left side.
I'd work on that and possibly change from a dislike to feeling just a
bit sharper in this area.

This is kinda,sorta, similar to ice skating and doing what are called
"back crossovers". You can built terrific speed, particularly coming
out of corners. You can build speed to the point of not just being
beyond your comfort zone, but on the edge of controllability. Repeated
skating in this area not only expands the comfort zone, but the speed
at which positive control can be maintained. With proper training and
practice it doesn't take long to fine yourself skating at a speed that
is now not only comfortable, but faster than that at which you could
have maintained control only a few weeks earlier. Now add a couple
dozen other skaters on the same ice that you need to avoid. Like
flying, if you avoid this area you will never really come near
reaching the limits of your abilities or developing them to
perfection.

Like flying, you learn not to get complacent or you are going to get
hurt. After all, you are skating on "blades" and those blades can cut
like a knife.

In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits. In flying
you can get killed.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
In flying you can get killed.

Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
saying, but I also believe it's possible to be competent, "sharp", on
guard, and alert and also not really "like" being there. IOW, I don't
believe a person has to say he/she *likes* being there in order to know
the limits or be competent at the edge of the envelope.

On Sep 9, 6:03 am, Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
speed?
I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
for proper control use.
If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
something similar?
In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

I think exposure to stalls is appropriate and you can get enough
practice keeping the wings level (with rudder) on the approach to the
stall during stall training. BUT why would you ever want to _fly_ so
close to stall? It's really dangerous to be just 10k above stall speed
in any part of the circuit and that speed is not good for anything in
real flight (terrible lift:drag and poor control response)... So
what's the point? Do you not worry about wind gusts/lulls at that
speed? I'd put this general idea in the fuel cut pull at takeoff bin
Perhaps a pilot who likes to fly at 10k above stall is an accident
waiting to happen? I don't see how extensive training at such low
speed can help you fly safely -quite the reverse. My natural mental
ASI is set to 65k!

An analogy would be the utility in driving a car on flat tyres... Yes
it can be controlled but watch out (you _will_ eventually spin out)!

My 2c

Cheers MC

Shirl wrote:
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
In flying you can get killed.

Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
saying, but I also believe it's possible to be competent, "sharp", on
guard, and alert and also not really "like" being there. IOW, I don't
believe a person has to say he/she *likes* being there in order to know
the limits or be competent at the edge of the envelope.

Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Shirl wrote:
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

I think what you said makes complete sense.
But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained
the way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than
some. I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know
how my airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the
envelope. Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?

No. You never really want to feel completely "comfortable" in the
airplane. You always want to be performing on that "edge" of awareness
when flying that keeps you ahead of the "comfortable" area and more
into the "alert" area. In other words, the correct mental attitude
while flying is one of being relaxed, but on guard and alert....just a
bit on edge as they say......to put it bluntly...SHARP!

Wow, is that well put! That explains it. I've always wondered why it was
never an intellectually and emotionally disconnected event like driving
a car. You have to be ON it. The whole time. So I'm supposed to feel
that way when I'm flying? Cool, I thought there was something wrong that
I had to overcome. Thanks Dudley.

Thread related content...Mastering slow flight is critical to
understanding the envelope your plane operates in. Just like no flap
landings, full flap landings, stalls, engine out procedures etc.
Personally based on my training experience, "mastering" slow flight was
one of the most difficult, particularly during my instrument training.
The sloppiness/looseness of the aircraft coupled the higher degree of
precision required to fly correctly within PTS was a great training
exercise.

KC

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
In flying you can get killed.

Shirl:
Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
saying, [snip]

Dudley Henriques:
Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))

Pretty cool!
I remember joking about the similarities between skating and flying with
my CFIG. One of the ways, thinking about how, with any of the big jumps
-- axel or any of the doubles or better -- you better be prepared to go
for it 100% or you're probably going to get hurt...that is, you can't
"kinda" do it and get away with it more than a couple of times. Not to
mention all the jokes about landings and spins!

I was in the SF Bay Area. We had a group of speed skaters that rented
our rink Sunday nights. Of course, some of us were there most Sunday
nights watching -- THAT was cool but surely seemed *a lot* more
dangerous than anything we did on figure skates (maybe it was just fear
of the unknown!).
;-)

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:56:14 -0000, wrote:

BUT why would you ever want to _fly_ so
close to stall?

You actually don't. Flying the airplane over the entire performance
range allows you to have "been there before" in case you NEED to
recover from or fly in those ranges.

It's really dangerous to be just 10k above stall speed
in any part of the circuit

It can be, so this is practiced at altitude, not in the traffic
pattern.

So
what's the point? Do you not worry about wind gusts/lulls at that
speed?

That's one of the goals. G

You're mushing the plane along, moving the controls to full
deflection, and the wind makes the plane fly in different manners as
the wind changes. My instructor had me flying square patterns and
figure 8's near stall speed in Warriors and my Sundowner. If the
plane stalls, and sometimes it will, you're the pilot and you recover
it!

Sometimes, you leave slow flight by reducing the power and purposely
stalling. Other times, you recover by going full power and gradually
cleaning up the airplane, (Hint - think "go around at the last
moment")

I'd put this general idea in the fuel cut pull at takeoff bin

THAT'S dangerous, and really dumb. Personally, I put proficiency over
the entire flight envelope in the bin with upset recovery training in
a properly certified aerobatic craft.

Perhaps a pilot who likes to fly at 10k above stall is an accident
waiting to happen?

I had an instructor that not only had me do LOTS of slow flight
(including under the hood), but he also had me do emergency spiral
decents near the top of the yellow arc, during PP training. Both are
actually in the Jeppesen PP-ASEL syllabus. He instructs because he
likes to teach, not to build time for another job.

During instrument training, the same guy had me doing tons of slow
flight under the hood, but added a full and imminent stall series with
no external reference. We also did instrument cross countries and
holding patterns in actual IFR.

On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan

wrote:
Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.

Dan

If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
something similar?
In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

I have a slightly different take on this. I am not an instructor but I
feel that slow flight is very easy to practice or teach compared to
some of the other areas of flight because it requires nothing more
than an airplane and an instructor. However some of the other aspects
of flying related to weather are the most difficult to learn or teach
(in my opinion). Learning to avoid rotors or learning to judge the
airplane's limits on a hot day at a higher elevation could very well
be more challenging because some of those aspects of flying involve
learning to avoid something which is harder to teach. Truth be told, I
have often wondered what the fuss is all about when it comes to slow
flight. After enough practice, its a piece of cake. In the last few
hrs leading to my PPL, I had no trouble flying very high nose up with
the stall horn blaring and the power up very high and not losing an
inch of altitude. The C-150 actually showed something like 35 knots
IAS if I remember right (although the TAS is much higher). My
instructor actually thought I was doing well enough that he didn't
want to spend time on slow flight on the day before the checkride
because he thought I was better off doing turns around a point which I
had trouble with. On the checkride, slow flight was something I was
eagerly waiting for to impress the DE.