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#11
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 10, 3:27*pm, Andy wrote:
In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches. At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am used to using. The two methods are as follows: Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest the glider. Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands. Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method For Method 1: – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run faster than a person holding a wing with both hands. – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip) – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing. Against Method 1: – * * None known For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating this method): – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could not be held up by one hand alone. – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing. Against Method 2 (My opinion): – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop. – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as someone with one arm free. – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to support the wing the launch should not be started. What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1? Andy http://www.soaringsafety.org/school/wingrunner/toc.htm |
#12
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How to run a wing?
"Greg Arnold" wrote He is holding on to the aileron? The previous post before yours said the following: - - -"16 is being assisted by method 2 and in this case one hand is on top of the wing and the other underneath it."- - - So it sounds like the hands are in front of the aileron. I would think that the chances for damaging the aileron if the runner slipped would be at least possible. Also, fears of damaging fabric (or other coverings) between the ribs. The only reasons for such a method (that I can think of) would be: 1) if a wing tip was difficult to get a grip on, or: 2) if the wingtip was fragile enough to risk damage to it by exerting pressure while holding onto the wingtip. The first justification could be possible (my guess only) but unlikely for most wingtips. The second case I presented (I would think) would be very highly unlikely, since most tips are strong enough to take ground strikes during landing operations. I think someone who knows nothing about wing running made up his own method. Sounds likely. The biggest argument I can think of is the normal courtesy of how others handle a persons aircraft. That is, the owner gets to decide how others handle his aircraft. That would mean you should have the final say of which method is used to launch, and don't permit a launch to occur if your wishes are not granted. Kinda' mean, I guess, but what the hell. There is too much at risk to not insist on your way. (or the highway) g -- Jim in NC |
#13
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 11, 10:45*am, John Cochrane
wrote: Method 3. Pick up the wing and slosh the water through the baffles until there is NO weight. I agree there should be no weight. If the wing runner is fighting against either an upwards or downwards force then when they eventually let go the wing is going to slam up or down with little time for the pilot to react. The pilot should centralize the controls so not as to fight the wingrunner by the way. I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep the forces neutral. If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron. Applying no pressure get ready to really run like hell. Too many wing runners think we're launching KA6s at sea level, not massively over-watered gliders at high altitudes, hot temperatures and all too often downwind. I seldom take more than one or two steps. It's not necessary to run if the glider is in balance to start with. I don't remember the last time anyone touched a wingtip while being launched by me. Certainly it was years ago. Admittedly I don't recall flying from a truly high altitude runway, but we do operate from a farm topdressing airstrip at 2000 ft for a week in February every year, often with downwind takeoffs, and it's often well over 30 C. Said strip is visible here, near the bottom left of the first photo, with some cars and trailers on it: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/...bd1bfc4d_b.jpg http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/...4f76ddcc_b.jpg |
#14
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
The pilot should centralize the controls so not as to fight the wingrunner by the way. I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep the forces neutral. Think about this a little more. If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect? Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input is required. If the wing runner balances the glider, that's exactly the bank angle you want regardless of lateral weight imbalance or crosswind. But the wing runner can only do that if the pilot centralizes the stick. If you balance a glider then let go, it will take several seconds for the wing tip to fall - more than enough time for the glider to accelerate to aileron control speed so why the heck are you guys dragging wing tips? Maybe because you're starting the takeoff roll with lots of unnecessary aileron input? It works like this. Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve lateral balance. Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing runner lets go. Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work MUCH better. |
#15
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 11, 2:55*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote: The pilot should centralize the controls so not as to fight the wingrunner by the way. I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep the forces neutral. Think about this a little more. If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect? Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input is required. .... It works like this. *Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve lateral balance. *Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing runner lets go. *Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work MUCH better. This was my point exactly. As pilot you can't tell what aileron is needed so long as someone is holding the wing. So don't make his life harder with aileron inputs. If he gets the wing to a zero-force point, you're in great shape even if the wings aren't level. As wingrunner I sometimes face a problem of a pilot with big stick inputs. I can sometimes wake up the pilot by raising or lowering the wing in the direction he wants. Lowering a heavy wing makes the pilot eliminate the aileron input and can produce better balance than raising it! To the previous post advocating only a few steps, don't try it full of waterballast, downwind, hot, slow towplanes, at high altitude like Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad. John Cochrane |
#16
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 11, 2:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad. John Cochrane There's potentially another reason this happens. If there's a crosswind, the tug's prop blast will drift downwind to hit the glider's downwind wing causing it to rise sharply. If the pilot is holding into-the-wind aileron, as most flight training materials advise, the wake encounter will slap the upwind wing to the runway. Gliders hit the prop blast after rolling about half the length of the tow rope. Just knowing it will happen and being ready to react is usually enough to prevent a wing drop. |
#17
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 10, 10:27*pm, Andy wrote:
In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches. At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am used to using. The two methods are as follows: Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest the glider. Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands. Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method For Method 1: – * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run faster than a person holding a wing with both hands. – * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip) – * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing. Against Method 1: – * * None known For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating this method): – * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could not be held up by one hand alone. – * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing. Against Method 2 (My opinion): – * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop. – * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as someone with one arm free. – * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to support the wing the launch should not be started. What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method 2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1? Andy I personally hold either the wingtip or the trailing edge, depending on where the aileron cutout is, between the thumb and finger of one hand at arm's length, and let go as soon as I can't run any faster. There are some risks to the wing tip runner. On one occasion I nearly lost a little finger when it got trapped in the aileron gap of a Slingsby T21, a vintage type where the ailerons extend right out to the wing tip. I only just managed to pull it out in time and it ached for a week afterwards. I know of another case where a lady actually lost a finger when her wedding ring snagged on a skid plate. A kind farmer with a small airstrip offered to run my wing for an aerotow retrieve: Unfortunately he tripped on a piece of uneven ground and went base over apex pulling my wing back down onto the ground as he did so. Fortunately there were no injuries to either party. Derek C |
#18
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep the forces neutral. If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron. That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing, unless the glider pilot requests a different technique. B. |
#19
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote: I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep the forces neutral. If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron. That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing, unless the glider pilot requests a different technique. B. I observed this example. The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3 Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. The wing runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing raised all the while still holding full left aileron. The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it slammed down and the glider ground looped. The pilot jumped out and ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job. The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do and it wasn't his fault. He had a very hard time finding willing wing runners after that. My take home: If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the wing runner do the job right. If I were the runner, I'd just put the wing down and walk away. |
#20
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 10:05*am, bildan wrote:
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing raised all the while still holding full left aileron. This happened before the launch, right? B. |
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