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#42
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robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement? BRBR None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur. The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s will also. robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties, early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information. Even in training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen in the real thing. If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru. I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of us, with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can predict what happened. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer |
#43
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On 21 Jun 2004 12:59:26 GMT, Pechs1 wrote:
robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range engagement? BRBR None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur. The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s will also. The Air Force is currently testing a grey F-117 for daylight use so it looks like the old thinking of stealth only at night is going by the wayside. -- -Jeff B. yeff at erols dot com |
#44
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The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties, early sixties magic missiles optimism. Three huge differences are the vastly improved missiles available today, vastly improved radar/avionics, and most important, the vastly improved non-cooperative target recognition systems available (that allow you to ID planes without using IFF- e.g., using your radar to identify their engine type). As NCTR is about as classified as it gets with jets, I don't know any specifics, but the word is that the newer jets (Super Bug, Raptor, F-35) all have pretty darn spiffy NCTR. That solves a lot of the ROE problems that crippled BVR/magic missile combo in the sixties/Vietnam. Combine that with increased use of datalinks and AWACS, and you have a much more reliable employment of BVR techniques. The stats since GW 1 onwards bear out that fact (and those were mostly with -15s and -16s). Tony |
#45
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Marine F-18 friend got to play with the Germans and their Mig-29's a
couple years ago. Somewhat similar match as the F-18 vs F-16. If they threw out the anchor and used the Bug's superior radius versus the Mig's somewhat superior rate, the Mig driver would call a shot well off boresight, and well before the Bug driver reached a firing solution. Given an all-aspect missile in the air, energy and airspeed (creating some tracking problems for the missile and displacement of your target aircraft from the countermeasures you'll deploy) versus no energy and no airspeed (a point source of IR in the sky) would be the preferred state. Hardly ideal, but preferred. *interesting story snipped* Here's the results from the Mig-29 vs. F-16 engagements (yeah, it's AF, but it's a good read): http://www.510fs.org/CodeOne/c1s4ff.htm They rate the -29 as being superior to the -18 in the slow speed (and the -16, although the latter beats it in the high speed). Their conclusions also run counter to my idea of cranking ASAP, but I'm curious how much of that is due to the performance of the R-73 (impressive compared to AIM-9M, but not so much to the Python-4 or -9X; 45 degrees -73 vs. roughly 90 degrees -4,-9X) and the awful avionics of the -29. Those "across the circle" shots the Viper drivers talked about respecting are exactly where the -4 and -9X are supposed to shine, and combined with a better jet, might further edge the feasibility of BFM out the window. With my lack of hard data, I'd firmly agree that keeping your speed up is the best idea now (against the -73), but I wonder how much the new generation of planes and missiles will change that. Cheers, Tony |
#46
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I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of
us, with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can predict what happened. Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about then! On a related note, have you read (and have an opinion on) Tom Cooper's book about the -14 in Iranian service? Lots of Tomcat a-a engagements there that you don't find in other sources. Tony |
#47
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"Pechs1" wrote in message ... robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range engagement? BRBR None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur. The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s will also. robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties, early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information. Even in training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen in the real thing. If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru. I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of us, with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can predict what happened. A short and glorious battle? Run away? At least it was a target rich environment. |
#48
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Tony- Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said
the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about then! BRBR It was a simulated strike of their airfield and the final idea was to get gun camera film of a Turkey. It was supposed to be a 4v4, it wasn't. The Egyptian military really owned everything back then, they could do whatever they wished. I went to Alexandria for a ROE brief, the only building that wasn't falling down was the EAF building. We lowly 0-4s were met by an auditorium of Mig pilots, many general officers with many kills during the two Israeli wars in 1967 and 1973. tony- Tom Cooper's book about the -14 in Iranian service? BRBR Nope, won't. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer |
#49
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John- A short and glorious battle?
Run away? At least it was a target rich environment. BRBR We dropped our drawers and wallowed around with these guys. Geez, there were Mig-21s everywhere, probably looked like flys around a trash can. Great fun and of course we didn't run away. We then went over to the Pyramids, took some pix and then got into hack for being over the pyramids. Weren't supposed to fly over them. Oh well, got a great pic tho by my wingy. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer |
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