GPS Hand Held for Badges

On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:14:55 GMT, "Papa3"
wrote:

It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. I sent a long email to
one of the "powers that be" a while back (a name well known on this
Usegroup) who didn't even have the courtesy to respond. I suggested that
for all badge flights and for records below national or world level, a
commercial, off the shelf (aka COTS) solution be allowed. This would bring
the price of an acceptable GPS log down from nearly $1000 to something on
the order of a couple hundred bucks.

I don't see where you get "nearly $1000" from. You can get an EW model
D logger for $US 535 plus P&P (and probably plus US customs duty/taxes
etc): that's a lot less than $1000.

The EW has a built in pressure transducer and is IGC certified with
most Garmin GPS units. It will record 24 hours worth of pressure
altitude + GPS position at a 4 second sample interval or 40 hours of
altitude only.

You want a GPS as well? Check out eBay: Garmin GPS II+ are going for
just under £100 ($US 180) incl. P&P right now on eBay UK and I bet
they're a lot less in the US.

A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
(11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
route and anyway its rrp is $1700.

IMO there's no contest: the EW logger + GPS II+ combination wins hands
down over any of the portable Garmin units on a cost/performance
basis.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"Martin Gregorie" wrote...
A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
(11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
route and anyway its rrp is $1700.

The Garmin Geko 201 (around $120 in the US) and 301 (around $190) both have
10000 track point storage. The 301 has a pressure sensor and includes the
glide ratio and glide ratio to waypoint functions.

Marc

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
NO.

It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
something you need to take up with your NAC.


True, but in a true democracy you are always allowed to take up any
topic for discussion at any time. At least in my country that is my
legal right.

The "I" in IGC stands for International. Also true, the one who votes
for you at IGC meetings is your National delegate. As a delegate to EGU
and an alternate delegate to IGC for many years I certainly look for
international arguments and opinions as well as views from our members
and clubs. And as an IGC delegate I have seen IGC democracy by work. As
you have Tim, and I hope you agree when I say that it is not as simple
as just voting and that´s it.

When you get an almost 300 pages long agenda one month before the
meeting one can be sure that not all delegates are fully informed by
digital secutity codes etc etc. So you have to rely on "experts reports".

What I do not like is that when people (me included) start a new
discussion on an old topic because you have got more knowledge or input,
these experts always come back and say "you did not vote against it, so
it was true democracy - end of story".

It is interesting to note that the one who replies on this topic is
usually GFAC members or associates, never "your IGC delegate".

What counts is not democracy, what counts is influence! That is indeed
democracy in practice.

I am in favour of COTS, so keep shooting you anynomous Papa3! During
1995-97 i "fought" this "battle" to have the EW FR approved. In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.

Robert Danewid
Sweden

"Robert Danewid" wrote in message
...

In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.


The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!

:-)

Ian

Robert et. al.

I apologize if I appear anonymous, but that's not the intent. Papa 3 is my
competition number, and it's just a convenient way to go about being
recognized on a Soaring newsgroup.

With regard to the post, hell yes I'll keep on posting. Tim, I would
respectfully challenge you to define the processes used to address COTS
proposals within the IGC as democratic; I think the word you were looking
for is oligarchic. My Websters defines an oligarchy as "a system of
government in which political power is exercised by a small group of people,
usually self-selected;" sounds a lot more accurate in this case. I would
love to understand exactly how the GFAC was constituted and, more
importantly, how it operates. Furthermore, I would like understand if the
IGC delegates from various countries even understand what they have been
voting for. I suspect that our IGC representatives may be seeing only the
information which the GFAC would like them to see.

Private mails I have received from several foks in the know in Canada,
Australia, and Sweden sent directly to me make it pretty clear that there is
not nearly the unanimity against COTS proposals that Tim and others would
have us believe. In fact, it strikes me that all we need is a few of the
IGC delegates from some of the larger IGC countries to openly state their
support for accelerating the COTS process, and I think we will see some
rapid changes.

Let's hear from some of the IGC and GFAC members - how about stating your
positions clearly and concisely.

Regards,

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)


"Robert Danewid" wrote in message
...


Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
NO.

It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
something you need to take up with your NAC.


True, but in a true democracy you are always allowed to take up any
topic for discussion at any time. At least in my country that is my
legal right.

The "I" in IGC stands for International. Also true, the one who votes
for you at IGC meetings is your National delegate. As a delegate to EGU
and an alternate delegate to IGC for many years I certainly look for
international arguments and opinions as well as views from our members
and clubs. And as an IGC delegate I have seen IGC democracy by work. As
you have Tim, and I hope you agree when I say that it is not as simple
as just voting and that´s it.

When you get an almost 300 pages long agenda one month before the
meeting one can be sure that not all delegates are fully informed by
digital secutity codes etc etc. So you have to rely on "experts reports".

What I do not like is that when people (me included) start a new
discussion on an old topic because you have got more knowledge or input,
these experts always come back and say "you did not vote against it, so
it was true democracy - end of story".

It is interesting to note that the one who replies on this topic is
usually GFAC members or associates, never "your IGC delegate".

What counts is not democracy, what counts is influence! That is indeed
democracy in practice.

I am in favour of COTS, so keep shooting you anynomous Papa3! During
1995-97 i "fought" this "battle" to have the EW FR approved. In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.

Robert Danewid
Sweden

On Wed, 26 May 2004 11:25:07 -0700, "Marc Ramsey"
wrote:

"Martin Gregorie" wrote...
A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
(11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
route and anyway its rrp is $1700.

The Garmin Geko 201 (around $120 in the US) and 301 (around $190) both have
10000 track point storage. The 301 has a pressure sensor and includes the
glide ratio and glide ratio to waypoint functions.

10,000 isn't really enough - I'd suggest that 20,000 was more like it
if you might need to make flights over 2-3 days without getting near a
download computer.

In any case, yes I'm aware of the Geko and the older eTrex, but
ignored them. I was assuming that Papa3 was talking about a GPS that
would also be useful for navigation and could be mounted on the panel.
I reckon the eTrex and Geko, while excellent hand-helds, have problems
for in-cockpit use compared with the GPS 12XL/II+/III+ series. The
eTrex series is, IMO, unsuitable for panel or canopy rail mount
because its buttons are on the edges on both sides while the Geko
screen is very small, the buttons are inconveniently placed above the
screen and its battery life is limited decidedly limited.



--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Right, that is why it could take some time......

Robert

tango4 wrote:
"Robert Danewid" wrote in message
...


In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.



The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!

:-)

Ian

tango4 wrote:

"Robert Danewid" wrote in message
...

In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.


The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!

:-)

Ian

Remember what Descartes said about that (approximate quote and translation):

Common sense is the the thind which is best shared in the world,
as everybody seems to be satisfied with the amount he got and
never asks for more.

Most people only cite and know the first line.