The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith

Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 1:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith


There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army. Didn't you
read about them? And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did. Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 1:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail
lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on
the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a
beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith


There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army. Didn't
you
read about them?

I just wrote about then

And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did.

He faced 7 of the 8

Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.


Advice you might want to take yourself.

Start with
PANZERS IN NORMANDY
THEN AND NOW
Eric Lefèvre

http://www.afterthebattle.com/panz.html

Panzer Regiments involved

HEER
Panzer Lehr Regiment (Panzer Lehr Division)
Panzer Regiment 3 (2. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 16 (116. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 22 (21. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 33 (9. Panzer Division)
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503
Miscellaneous Army Panzer Units
Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654
Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100
Panzer Abteilung 206

WAFFEN-SS
SS-Panzer Regiment 1 (1. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 2 (2. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 9 (9. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 10 (10. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 12 (12. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Abteilung 17 (17. SS-Panzer Grenadier Division)
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 102

Keith

Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 3:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 1:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail
lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on
the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a
beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith


There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army. Didn't
you
read about them?

I just wrote about then

And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did.

He faced 7 of the 8

Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.


Advice you might want to take yourself.

Start with
PANZERS IN NORMANDY
THEN AND NOW
Eric Lefèvre

http://www.afterthebattle.com/panz.html

Panzer Regiments involved

HEER
Panzer Lehr Regiment (Panzer Lehr Division)
Panzer Regiment 3 (2. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 16 (116. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 22 (21. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 33 (9. Panzer Division)
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503
Miscellaneous Army Panzer Units
Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654
Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100
Panzer Abteilung 206

WAFFEN-SS
SS-Panzer Regiment 1 (1. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 2 (2. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 9 (9. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 10 (10. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 12 (12. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Abteilung 17 (17. SS-Panzer Grenadier Division)
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 102

Keith


I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:


I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.

Arthur Kramer


Brilliant! Any smart ass comment to avoid adressing the issue.

Dave

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/2/2004 5:29 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 3:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 1:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail
lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on
the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a
beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith


There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army. Didn't
you
read about them?

I just wrote about then

And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did.

He faced 7 of the 8

Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.


Advice you might want to take yourself.

Start with
PANZERS IN NORMANDY
THEN AND NOW
Eric Lefèvre

http://www.afterthebattle.com/panz.html

Panzer Regiments involved

HEER
Panzer Lehr Regiment (Panzer Lehr Division)
Panzer Regiment 3 (2. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 16 (116. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 22 (21. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 33 (9. Panzer Division)
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503
Miscellaneous Army Panzer Units
Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654
Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100
Panzer Abteilung 206

WAFFEN-SS
SS-Panzer Regiment 1 (1. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 2 (2. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 9 (9. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 10 (10. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 12 (12. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Abteilung 17 (17. SS-Panzer Grenadier Division)
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 102

Keith


I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany

Art, when did he say they did? He only identified the Nazi armour involved.
Your combat experience doesn't trump mine nor does it make you an expert on
war, any war. It only makes you an expert on YOU itty, bitty piece of a very
big war.

Why is that when YOU use second hand information it is okay, but when someone
else does it isn't?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 3:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 1:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

But once they got the Fuhrer's authorization to move forward they
couldn't ge
very far due to the destruction we imposed on the bridges and rail
lines.
Also
free ranging P-47's attacked anything and everything thet moved on
the
ground. It was tactical operations at their best. It was all a
beautiful
sight. You should have been there.



My father was there. The fighting around Caen was UGLY.
The British and Canadian forces were engaged with those
panzers you claim didnt get there. 7 of the 8 Panzer
divisions the Germans had in Northern France were in
the area. 21st Panzer were already there and the first
reinforcements, 12th SS Panzer arrived on the 8th June.

Fighting Tigers and Panthers when you have
Sherman's and Churchill's isnt fun. Thats where 50th
Infantry Division took its heaviest casualties of the
war, his battallion lost half its men during that
campaign. The 51st Highland division found itself
fighting the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions.

The 2nd Canadian Division lost almost 3000 men
in just 6 days. Those panzers got there, the
bombing slowed but did NOT stop them.

Keith


There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army. Didn't
you
read about them?

I just wrote about then

And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did.

He faced 7 of the 8

Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.


Advice you might want to take yourself.

Start with
PANZERS IN NORMANDY
THEN AND NOW
Eric Lefèvre

http://www.afterthebattle.com/panz.html

Panzer Regiments involved

HEER
Panzer Lehr Regiment (Panzer Lehr Division)
Panzer Regiment 3 (2. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 16 (116. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 22 (21. Panzer Division)
Panzer Regiment 33 (9. Panzer Division)
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503
Miscellaneous Army Panzer Units
Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654
Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100
Panzer Abteilung 206

WAFFEN-SS
SS-Panzer Regiment 1 (1. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 2 (2. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 9 (9. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 10 (10. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Regiment 12 (12. SS-Panzer Division)
SS-Panzer Abteilung 17 (17. SS-Panzer Grenadier Division)
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101
Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 102

Keith


I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.

Maybe not, but then again, they *do* tell us (with much more authority than
you can muster) that without a doubt you have again been proven to be full
of excrement (i.e., "wrong", since you may find that description easier to
understand, given that you apparently missed the fact that Keith covered the
employment of "more than one" Pz Div in his earlier response to you).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic



I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.


Of course they dont.

They do however tell me what 'REALLY' happened.
Thats something that wasnt readily apparent to the
average soldier fighting there at the time.

Keith

On 02 Sep 2004 20:27:25 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

There was more than just one Panzer division in the German army.

And more than one in Normandy, as Keith already stated, but somehow
troops in the British sector of the beachhead ended up having to fight
the only panzer division within reach of the beaches on D-Day despite
your efforts. Try reading his post before responding next time.

Didn't you
read about them?

You're not disputing with Keith, you're disputing the evidence of his
father, who actually fought on the ground in Normandy against the
divisions in question. When it comes down to fighting the panzers on
the ground in Normandy, Keith's old man was there, and you're the
wannabe reading about it. I really shouldn't respond to your
trolling, but this specific example exposes everything that I despise
about the moral hypocrisy you display online.

And had we not stopped what we did, your father would have
faced a lot more than he did. Now be a nice boy, say thank you, and go back to
reading your books.

Do you realise how bad this kind of aggressively infantile chauvanism
makes you look?

Gavin Bailey

--

But, first, want speed. Bart not greedy as all know. 250MHz enough.
I attempt use SGI chip in MB. But chip not fit, then I bend pins. Shove in MB hard.
Now apply hammer. Yeah, sit down, ****er! Power on, go BEEEEEP! - Bart Kwan En

Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 9/2/2004 11:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The greatest missions were tactical, not strategic



I am sure those books will tell me what war was "REALLY" like.


Of course they dont.

They do however tell me what 'REALLY' happened.
Thats something that wasnt readily apparent to the
average soldier fighting there at the time.

Keith


Those of us who were there know nothing. Those who weren't there know it all.
Does that include your dad?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer