Looking for starter plane

Hi all.

I'm a current student looking for suggestions on a plane purchase in
the next year. I will be going in on one with a buddy who is also a
student.

We are looking for a fixed gear, tricycle, two door, preferably low
wing. I would like a performance level near a Cherokee 140/150
(160HP). Most of the flying will be within two hours distance (one
way). One of the uses this plane will have is getting us to one of our
customers about 140 miles away. (3.5 hours by car, approx 1:15 by
C-140) If we have this level of speed, I think we can make a business
case for the plane.

I woiuld expect no more than 2 passengers, however, I think we could
survive with a two seater tandem. Our home runway is about 2835 ft
with trees on both ends. I'd like to spend around $40K. (or less)

A Cherokee would be ideal, BUT I am concerned about the single door.
I think this would turn off a lot of potential passengers. A canopy
wouldn't be out of the question, but the Grumman I saw looked a little
underpowered. I am concerned about the Beech cost of ownership.

Am I on a snipe hunt?

Jim

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:13:03 GMT, Jimbob wrote:

I woiuld expect no more than 2 passengers, however, I think we could
survive with a two seater tandem. Our home runway is about 2835 ft
with trees on both ends. I'd like to spend around $40K. (or less)

Jim,

I bought a Beech Sundowner for 38K, and overhauled the engine for 13.5K.
Not exactly in your price range, but something to consider. I don't think
there are any other "older" low wings outside a Beech that have two doors.

Sundowner is designed for creature comfort, not speed. I plan 110 knots on
my cross countrys. I have am based in MBO (Madison, MS), and flew as far
as Daytona Beach, and Myrtle Beach with no problems.

The plane outflies my bladder :-), so I don't have to worry about VFR or
IFR fuel reserves.

Allen

"Jimbob" wrote in message
...
Hi all.

I'm a current student looking for suggestions on a plane purchase in
the next year. I will be going in on one with a buddy who is also a
student.

We are looking for a fixed gear, tricycle, two door, preferably low
wing. I would like a performance level near a Cherokee 140/150
(160HP). Most of the flying will be within two hours distance (one
way). One of the uses this plane will have is getting us to one of our
customers about 140 miles away. (3.5 hours by car, approx 1:15 by
C-140) If we have this level of speed, I think we can make a business
case for the plane.

I woiuld expect no more than 2 passengers, however, I think we could
survive with a two seater tandem. Our home runway is about 2835 ft
with trees on both ends. I'd like to spend around $40K. (or less)

A Cherokee would be ideal, BUT I am concerned about the single door.
I think this would turn off a lot of potential passengers. A canopy
wouldn't be out of the question, but the Grumman I saw looked a little
underpowered. I am concerned about the Beech cost of ownership.

Am I on a snipe hunt?

Jim



Jim,

Forget the price of the plane. Not because you are on a snipe hunt, just
that it isn't all that relevant.

What's more relevant is:

1. How much can you invest up front (for purchase or down payment).
2. How much can you afford to spend to operate the plane per year (direct
hourly + fixed + nasty annual).
3. How many hours per year, and other mssion information such as distance,
IFR capability, pilot capability, passengers, speed, range, load, etc.

This is my new mantra. I have seen too many people squander months and even
years away making a decision. Worse, I recently worked with a friend who
simply bought the wrong plane, and is now seeing the cost of upgrading. He
runs a company and highly values his family time. Buying all over again is
not making him that happy.

I have not worked out yet which order is best to figure out before you start
fudging. Part of the problem is that many folks are not really good at
answering number 3.

Now, unfortunately for my latest theory, you have suggested a plane that is
one of the best values in GA. It is cheap to own, and honest. So, if it
meets your mission, go buy the nicest one you can find. Get a good IFR
panel too, and don't be afraid to step up to a bigger Piper, 172, or Tiger
to get a good IFR panel. If the plane is for business then you will be
needing IFR.

There is a tandem plane called the Varga Kuchina(sp?) that meets your needs,
but parts are not always available so it is not the best for business use.
A Van's could work better for you as well if you want to go Tandem, but that
brings in all the experimental issues.

At any rate, I find that about 50% of people just do not want to fly in
small planes anyway. I wouldn't worry about the door.

There are a lot of Cherokees flying, and they are honest airplanes for
a reasonable price. There is a superb support group (Cherokee Pilots
Assn) and parts are readily available plus it's not hard to find
mechanics that know how to maintain them.

Do your ownership homework, though - check out insurance cost, cost of
annual (then double it) at your local A&P. Aviation Consumer has
buyers guides. Remember that it's always cheaper to purchase what you
need rather than buy low and upgrade.

expanding the question a bit...i'm also shopping and have some good
ideas what i want but don't really have the cash to buy AND fly. seems
like one or the other at the moment but:

i seem to see light ga aircraft, just above the sport class, going up
in price at a fairly strong rate.

any guesses on what's really happening with that market???


dan

"houstondan" wrote in message
ups.com...

expanding the question a bit...i'm also shopping and have some good
ideas what i want but don't really have the cash to buy AND fly. seems
like one or the other at the moment but:

i seem to see light ga aircraft, just above the sport class, going up
in price at a fairly strong rate.

any guesses on what's really happening with that market???


dan


There was a dip over the past couple years due to the economy. Now that the
world did not end, the market is recovering, (or it could just be a small
upside in an overall trend?). The 150's and 152's are still a bit
depressed. If you want one, I can tell you where to find them. I know of
many for sale not advertised (flight schools are mostly switching to 172's
for primary trainers because more and more students are just too big for the
150's). Not bad planes if you are willing to do a little of your own
maintenance and fly them right.

On 21-Mar-2005, "Paul kgyy" wrote:

There are a lot of Cherokees flying, and they are honest airplanes for
a reasonable price. There is a superb support group (Cherokee Pilots
Assn) and parts are readily available plus it's not hard to find
mechanics that know how to maintain them.


These threads -- new pilots asking for advice on a "first" airplane -- crop
up every once in a while. And every time, a bunch of folks pipe up with
recommendations for Cherokee 140s. There Is a reason for this. The C-140
is a very capable airplane that can be purchased and maintained at
relatively low cost, with good parts availability. They are easy and fun to
fly, and work very well for IFR training and touring. Not as roomy as a
Cessna 172, but just about as fast and with considerably longer range
(particularly when IFR with just 2 aboard). In fact, it's a very good
touring airplane for 2 people, but will carry 4 in a pinch. Yes, the single
door is a drawback, but that can be said of 33- and 35- series Bonanzas (and
even Cessna 310s) as well. In practice, it seems to be not that much of an
issue.

I owned a 1968 C-140 for a number of years and flew it on trips both long
and short, VFR and IFR, with very few problems. Just a solid, honest
airplane that gives good value.

--
-Elliott Drucker

On 21-Mar-2005, "Paul kgyy" wrote:

There are a lot of Cherokees flying, and they are honest airplanes for
a reasonable price. There is a superb support group (Cherokee Pilots
Assn) and parts are readily available plus it's not hard to find
mechanics that know how to maintain them.

I've got a '69 180. Whenever anyone asks about it, I describe it as
a flying Buick.

Everyone knows how to fix it.
Parts are reasily available.
Good IFR platform.
Good VFR and IFR learning aircraft
Unless you do something *really* stupid, you'll live thru almost
landing (intended or otherwise)
It's not a sportscar, not really spiffy
Most of the one-time ADs have already been taken care of.

Sounds just like a Buick.

On the other hand, to a non-pilot, owning *any* airplane is impressive!

Thanks for the input all.

I think after weighing all the factors, the Cherokee line is the most
logical choice. I think it fits all my requirements for range, speed,
wing location and economy. The only thing is the door. And that's
really only cosmetic and conveinence. Thus, it should be bottom of my
list.


Jim



On 22 Mar 2005 04:48:05 GMT, Blanche wrote:

On 21-Mar-2005, "Paul kgyy" wrote:

There are a lot of Cherokees flying, and they are honest airplanes for
a reasonable price. There is a superb support group (Cherokee Pilots
Assn) and parts are readily available plus it's not hard to find
mechanics that know how to maintain them.

I've got a '69 180. Whenever anyone asks about it, I describe it as
a flying Buick.

Everyone knows how to fix it.
Parts are reasily available.
Good IFR platform.
Good VFR and IFR learning aircraft
Unless you do something *really* stupid, you'll live thru almost
landing (intended or otherwise)
It's not a sportscar, not really spiffy
Most of the one-time ADs have already been taken care of.

Sounds just like a Buick.

On the other hand, to a non-pilot, owning *any* airplane is impressive!

Jimbob wrote:
: Thanks for the input all.

: I think after weighing all the factors, the Cherokee line is the most
: logical choice. I think it fits all my requirements for range, speed,
: wing location and economy. The only thing is the door. And that's
: really only cosmetic and conveinence. Thus, it should be bottom of my
: list.

I'll pipe(r) in and support the Cherokee Buick argument. It's not sexy, but
it gets the job done for about the minimum of cost possible on a ceritifed plane. The
-140's can handle 2 people with 50 gal (5-6 hours!), or three fairly well with your
2-hour range. Everyone knows them and can work on them. They're not stellar
climbers, but 2800' should be comfortable with a reasonable 2-person load.

The single door is a slight drawback, but it's not really that bad. If you
don't like the idea of climbing in first, you could just let the other guy sit in the
left seat and you fly right. If you really want 2-doors, other ones you may want to
consider would be the Piper Tomahawak (understand their scare tactics and AD's), and
the Grumman line (Yankee 2-place, Cheetah 4-place).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
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