Looking for starter plane

In article ,
Jimbob wrote:
Thanks for the input all.

I think after weighing all the factors, the Cherokee line is the most
logical choice. I think it fits all my requirements for range, speed,
wing location and economy. The only thing is the door. And that's
really only cosmetic and conveinence. Thus, it should be bottom of my
list.

Jim:

My cherokee has one installed door and a second emergency door. You
should see what a 3 D cell steel flashlight does to the pilot's
window....Instant Door! Plus you have the advantage of a great
emergency landing light.

The other advantage of the low-wing (and please, let's not get into
the religious discussion again...) is that you can see the runway
at all times in the pattern. But remember that someone in a high-wing
may be below you, so you'll both be invisible to each other.

I've owned a 140 and a 151 and loved them both.

That said I must say that the door was my single biggest complaint. Not only
was it a hassle to pile 3-4 people in and out but the years of passengers
grabbing the door as they pull themselves out and set themselves in leaves
most of them ill-fitting at best and quite drafty in the winter. My wife
constantly (only in the winter mind you - she reads this stuff) complained
about the cold air coming through the door so I'd have to turn the heat to
shoe melting temperatures to combat it.

FWIW, if I were to get back into the market for a starter plane I'd have to
give the 172 a serious look. All of the positives that can be said for the
cherokees (easy to maintain, cheap to insure, every mechanic has worked on
them, yada yada yada) can also be said for the skyhawk. Performance is
roughly the same and you get a 2nd door, albeit likely for a higher cost.

Just my $.02

-Brian
Iowa City, IA

"Jimbob" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the input all.

I think after weighing all the factors, the Cherokee line is the most
logical choice. I think it fits all my requirements for range, speed,
wing location and economy. The only thing is the door. And that's
really only cosmetic and conveinence. Thus, it should be bottom of my
list.

Great thread, I'm in the same mode right now and I'd like to run
another option past y'all.

I've been training in a PA-28-161 and I'm taking my checkride next
week. At the same time, I'm moving to a town that has no Pipers for
rent (Cessna only). I like the low wing planes, and I really want to
buy my own for my upcoming IFR training.

I can scrounge together around $20-25K out of pocket and I hate to
finance things. Since I'm an extremely low-time pilot, I don't want to
go flying with my family until I've got more practice. I've put this
together, made some cost of ownership calculations, and here's what I'm
thinking of:

Piper Tomahawk w/ IFR stack. I've seen nice looking, low time aircraft
listed in places for the 20-25 range. Here's what I get:

1. Full ownership, no financing.
2. IFR capable in the indicated pricerange.
3. Enough usable space to carry me and an instructor (I'm 250, leaving
about 160 to for a fully fueled plane).
4. Low wing
5. Low cost of ownership.

I'd love to buy a Cherokee 140, but they seem to be consistently about
10K higher. If I save up until I can afford one flat out, then that's
a bunch of time where I'm not flying. It seems that it might be a
better bet for me to get something that'll fulfill all of my needs for
the next 100 or so hours (I can always rent a Cessna for the occasional
flight I need more seats if I really decide I want to) while I build
some time and become a better pilot/get instrument rated. Finally,
I've read up a lot about the spin troubles, so my eyes are open.

Does this sound like a well reasoned approach? Am I missing anything
big? I know some of you might suggest 'go ahead and finance the
difference', but that's something I REALLY don't want to do. I'm
confident that I could get my money back out of the PA-38 when I'm
ready to upgrade to a Cherokee, and this seems like the difference
between flying and dreaming.

I want to go into this with my eyes open. Comments?

Ben Hallert wrote:

I can scrounge together around $20-25K out of pocket and I hate to
finance things. Since I'm an extremely low-time pilot, I don't want to
go flying with my family until I've got more practice. I've put this
together, made some cost of ownership calculations, and here's what I'm
thinking of:

Piper Tomahawk w/ IFR stack. I've seen nice looking, low time aircraft
listed in places for the 20-25 range. Here's what I get:

1. Full ownership, no financing.
2. IFR capable in the indicated pricerange.
3. Enough usable space to carry me and an instructor (I'm 250, leaving
about 160 to for a fully fueled plane).
4. Low wing
5. Low cost of ownership.

If $20-25K is what you have available, that's not enough to buy a plane with a
$20-25K purchase price. Take a look through the various threads here about
buying a first plane. There's one thing everyone here agrees on, and that is
that you don't want to blow your whole wad on the purchase. The cost of
operating and maintaining an airplane is widely variable and unpredictable. You
need to be ready for a multi-thousand dollar surpsise at any time. Doesn't
matter how good your pre-buy inspection was.

Nevertheless, I hope you go ahead and do it, join the rest of us in self-induced
poverty. :-)

Dave

"Ben Hallert" wrote in message
ups.com...
Great thread, I'm in the same mode right now and I'd like to run
another option past y'all.

I've been training in a PA-28-161 and I'm taking my checkride next
week. At the same time, I'm moving to a town that has no Pipers for
rent (Cessna only). I like the low wing planes, and I really want to
buy my own for my upcoming IFR training.

I can scrounge together around $20-25K out of pocket and I hate to
finance things. Since I'm an extremely low-time pilot, I don't want to
go flying with my family until I've got more practice. I've put this
together, made some cost of ownership calculations, and here's what I'm
thinking of:

Piper Tomahawk w/ IFR stack. I've seen nice looking, low time aircraft
listed in places for the 20-25 range. Here's what I get:

1. Full ownership, no financing.
2. IFR capable in the indicated pricerange.
3. Enough usable space to carry me and an instructor (I'm 250, leaving
about 160 to for a fully fueled plane).
4. Low wing
5. Low cost of ownership.

I'd love to buy a Cherokee 140, but they seem to be consistently about
10K higher. If I save up until I can afford one flat out, then that's
a bunch of time where I'm not flying. It seems that it might be a
better bet for me to get something that'll fulfill all of my needs for
the next 100 or so hours (I can always rent a Cessna for the occasional
flight I need more seats if I really decide I want to) while I build
some time and become a better pilot/get instrument rated. Finally,
I've read up a lot about the spin troubles, so my eyes are open.

Does this sound like a well reasoned approach? Am I missing anything
big? I know some of you might suggest 'go ahead and finance the
difference', but that's something I REALLY don't want to do. I'm
confident that I could get my money back out of the PA-38 when I'm
ready to upgrade to a Cherokee, and this seems like the difference
between flying and dreaming.

I want to go into this with my eyes open. Comments?

Ben,

I am with you on the finance thing, but I got over it. Here's why.

Most things that people pay interest on, they shouldn't. That's because
they would often save money and make a wiser choice by buying cash. If you
can't afford the luxury of a new car, then buying a used one is likely a
better choice. They are pretty much disposable items in the end. As far as
furniture and other items go, you are likely upside down in them as soon as
you start making payments - and the rates are usually stupid.

Houses are different, the cost of buying and selling is just too much.
Buying a house with over 20% down that you can afford to pay for is usually
a wise decision so long as you buy right, and expect to live there for 5
plus years. Often, renting and saving will not get you there, and in the
meantime, the house you wanted has likely appreciated. I have made money on
every home I have owned. I don't mean I sold it for more than I paid, I mean
that the check at closing was more than my down payment and ALL my payments
combined (this is not usual, but we have had a good run).

Now, for airplanes. You can buy an older plane and usually get back most of
the money you spend to buy it. What you are out is anything you put into it
to to bring it up to standard, fuel, maintenance, engine time, insurance,
and INTEREST. Yes, you can avoid INTEREST. But, planes are like houses more
than like cars or other items.

Better to have INTEREST on a plane that is the right plane for you, than all
the other payments with a lesser plane.

If you do the math, you will see that your costs look more like UPGRADES,
MAINTENANCE, FUEL, PRINCIPAL, and interest (note the small letters).

You need a cash reserve or risk grounding due to finance which means that
the bills get higher as the plane rots. Buying and selling low end planes
is fun for some people, but most would rather buy more plane now, and avoid
the transaction risks, costs and hassles.

Bottom line, unless you can find a plane thats just like you want it and pay
cash (and still have a few thousand in reserve), you are better off
borrowing money to finance it. It will give you a much better value in the
end.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

Most things that people pay interest on, they shouldn't. That's because they
would often save money and make a wiser choice by buying cash. If you can't
afford the luxury of a new car, then buying a used one is likely a better
choice.

I did that most of my life, and that is why I can now afford the luxury of
a new one every now and then. l compromize by using a healthy down payment and
maximum 36-month financing.

They are pretty much disposable items in the end. As far as furniture and
other items go, you are likely upside down in them as soon as you start making
payments - and the rates are usually stupid.

I agree.

Houses are different, the cost of buying and selling is just too much. Buying
a house with over 20% down that you can afford to pay for is usually a wise
decision so long as you buy right, and expect to live there for 5 plus years.
Often, renting and saving will not get you there, and in the meantime, the
house you wanted has likely appreciated.

Bingo! In my county, the average home went up 36% last year. In that type
of market ther is no way to "save" yourself into a house. You just have to
somehow get up a down payment and then jump on that elevator.

Now, for airplanes. You can buy an older plane and usually get back most of
the money you spend to buy it. What you are out is anything you put into it
to to bring it up to standard, fuel, maintenance, engine time, insurance, and
INTEREST. Yes, you can avoid INTEREST. But, planes are like houses more than
like cars or other items.

Save money; rent.


Vaughn

Save money; rent.


Vaughn

Ya, I heard the old saw the other day:

If it flies, floats, or f(ornicates) its cheaper to rent.

Normally, I laugh and agree, but this time I couldn't think that there was
something wrong with that advice. Then it came to me. In all three cases,
what the guy who rented it last did to it may kill you!

Is it worth the savings?

"Dude" wrote in message
...

Save money; rent.


Vaughn

Ya, I heard the old saw the other day:

If it flies, floats, or f(ornicates) its cheaper to rent.

Normally, I laugh and agree, but this time I couldn't think that there was
something wrong with that advice. Then it came to me. In all three
cases, what the guy who rented it last did to it may kill you!

Is it worth the savings?


No that's the truth!!! Well stated!!!!

"Dude" wrote in message
...

Save money; rent.


Vaughn

Ya, I heard the old saw the other day:

If it flies, floats, or f(ornicates) its cheaper to rent.

Normally, I laugh and agree, but this time I couldn't think that there was
something wrong with that advice. Then it came to me. In all three cases,
what the guy who rented it last did to it may kill you!

Of course, that is also true (albeit to a lesser extent) when you buy any
used aircraft. Even a good prebuy can't catch everything that has been done to
the plane over the last several decades. Also, nasty things have been known to
happen to parked, unwatched, airplanes; though a good preflight will catch most
of them.


Is it worth the savings?

So far

Vaughn

Is it worth the savings?

So far

Vaughn



LOL! Enjoy it while it lasts