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#11
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
Mxsmanic wrote in
: RubberWatch writes: I am a student pilot. I was out flying solo today and was instructed by ATC to fly a heading of 210. I thought he said 110 and I flew on that heading. Did you read back the heading? If you read back 110 and he said nothing, you're okay, since he should have corrected you. If you read back 210 and then flew 110, that's potentially a problem (although probably not in this case, since you fixed it). If you didn't read back the heading, that also can potentially be a problem because the burden is upon you to fly the correct heading if you didn't read it back. If you had ever flown a real airplane Anthony, you would know what a moron you are. Ooops, I forgot, you've never flown a real airplane. All you do is set the autopilot in your simulator and stroke your joystick while watching the monitor. |
#12
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
On Apr 3, 5:33 pm, Dan wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:01 pm, RubberWatch wrote: Hello- I am a student pilot. I was out flying solo today and was instructed by ATC to fly a heading of 210. I thought he said 110 and I flew on that heading. He then told me it looks like your going the wrong direction i need you to fly 210. I got a bit locked up and said 210. I ended up on 210 but I really kinda got "mike fright". A couple of questions first... Did you announce you were a student pilot? Which ATC were you talking to? (A tower? Class B?) Dan Mc Hi- First of all, thank you to everyone who has promptly replied to my posting. Either everyone is helpful, on different time zones, or many pilots are internet junkies like myself To clarify... I was in E class airspace. believe in E airspace communication is not required but recommended while VFR I was talking to a ARTCC (Approach) , not a tower...typically I depart a non towered airport and fly to a practice area but stay on norcal approach while in the area....another thing he mentioned to me was that I had "multiple targets near marysville" which I take to mean that I was flying to an area that had alot of air traffic? I did announce to him that I was a student pilot about midway into the communication. I was on a heading of 300 when I was told to "alter course 90 degrees to the right temporarily." Looking back on it I was confused by his instruction and I did alter towards a heading of 060 and then somehow I heard him say 210. That is when things got thrown off for me. |
#13
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
Larry Dighera writes:
As I recall, several years ago the FAA changed their policy, and removed the controller from culpability in the event the pilot's read-back was incorrect. In that case, what's the advantage of a readback? If the pilot is expected to hear and obey correctly, why wouldn't the controller be held to the same standard? |
#14
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
Maxwell writes:
Bull****, he's okay anyway. He's more okay with a readback. Readbacks are good. |
#15
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
excellent.. more advice from a simulator operator..
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... RubberWatch writes: I am a student pilot. I was out flying solo today and was instructed by ATC to fly a heading of 210. I thought he said 110 and I flew on that heading. Did you read back the heading? If you read back 110 and he said nothing, you're okay, since he should have corrected you. If you read back 210 and then flew 110, that's potentially a problem (although probably not in this case, since you fixed it). If you didn't read back the heading, that also can potentially be a problem because the burden is upon you to fly the correct heading if you didn't read it back. |
#16
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
In article ,
wrote: RubberWatch wrote: I am a student pilot. I was out flying solo today and was instructed by ATC to fly a heading of 210. I thought he said 110 and I flew on that heading. He then told me it looks like your going the wrong direction i need you to fly 210. I got a bit locked up and said 210. I ended up on 210 but I really kinda got "mike fright". **** happens. You should read back instructions to avoid this, Cessna 12A, heading 110, so unless ATC is asleep you either hear nothing back or you get corrected. That helps but still doesn't prevent brain farts. I was flying by SFO the other day, and got a vector of 010 to avoid some departures, read it back as 010, and then had a brain fart and turned to 110. ATC called me on it, but by that point I was clear of the departure path, and they turned me back on course. To the original poster, unless you get a phone number to call, ATC correcting your heading is the end of it. **** happens. John -- John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/ |
#17
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
BT wrote:
excellent.. more advice from a simulator operator.. "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... He's still here? -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
#18
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:42:59 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote: Larry Dighera writes: As I recall, several years ago the FAA changed their policy, and removed the controller from culpability in the event the pilot's read-back was incorrect. In that case, what's the advantage of a readback? The controller is still expected to listen for, and correct any, errors in the pilot's read-back, but all responsibility for compliance with ATC instructions is apparently solely the responsibility of the pilot. If the pilot is expected to hear and obey correctly, why wouldn't the controller be held to the same standard? The Pilot In Command is solely responsible for operation of his flight. The change was questioned at the time it was implemented. There is little question in my mind that the FAA seeks to minimize their liability exposure. |
#19
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
RubberWatch wrote:
Any thoughts? SD Move on in a positive direction. You know what you did wrong and can learn from it. The controller probably had a clue you were a student. I know that my local app/dep folks know most of the local school tail numbers. |
#20
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Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:22:09 -0700 (PDT), RubberWatch
wrote: I was in E class airspace. Technically, ATC has no jurisdiction to "victor" VFR aircraft operating within Class E airspace. Controllers often do attempt to do that, but compliance is at the discretion of the Pilot In Command (PIC). [i] believe in E airspace communication is not required but recommended while VFR That is correct. Ask your instructor about Cockpit Resource Management and/or do a web search. It's always best for the PIC to employ all the tools at his disposal, and a controller at a radar scope provides an additional means of spotting and avoiding conflicting air traffic. In congested urban areas, and indeed other areas, the prudent pilot will request Radar Traffic Advisory Service (Flight Following) and burn a landing light to enhance his conspicuity (FAA Operation Light On). I was talking to a ARTCC (Approach) , not a tower... Generally Air Route Traffic Control Centers ('Center' in the vernacular) control the en route phase of flights. Approach/Departure Control controllers are generally operating from a Terminal Radar Approach CONtrol facility or TRACON. They typically coordinate flights climbing to or descending from their en route altitudes. typically I depart a non towered airport and fly to a practice area but stay on norcal approach while in the area....another thing he mentioned to me was that I had "multiple targets near marysville" which I take to mean that I was flying to an area that had alot of air traffic? So you were receiving Radar Traffic Advisory Service from an Approach Control facility (NorCal TRACON located in Sacramento), and the controller "suggested" that you change course to avoid potential conflicting air traffic. The "targets" refer to the display of individual aircraft depicted on the controller's radar screen, not something for you to aim at. :-) I did announce to him that I was a student pilot about midway into the communication. I was on a heading of 300 when I was told to "alter course 90 degrees to the right temporarily." You were "advised" to alter your course by the controller. As PIC, you have sole authority (and responsibility) for your flight operations within Class E (and G) airspace. It seems many CFIs fail to instill the concept of "command" in their students. Here are dictionary definitions of the word 'command': http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/command The concept of being in command is often new to a flight student. I can't emphasize strongly enough, that the flight crew member acting as Pilot In Command must assume command responsibility for his flight operations, and not abandon his responsibility to others. Because of this necessity to command, I believe becoming an airman should be a life changing experience for those unaccustomed to commanding. Looking back on it I was confused by his instruction and I did alter towards a heading of 060 and then somehow I heard him say 210. That is when things got thrown off for me. Radio communications can be difficult in the noisy environment. If you haven't yet, consider purchasing an Active Noise Reduction headset; you'll never go back to a passive headset. At this stage in your flight training, these sort of errors are common. But now that you've experienced this one, you'll be vigilant to see that it isn't repeated. And after you have earned your Airmans Certificate, you'll continue to make other errors and learn from them, hence the cliche "license to learn." -- There's an old saying that every pilot starts with a full bag of luck, and empty bag of experience - the trick being to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck" -- Colin Southern |
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