THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: Dave Holford
Date: 9/7/03 7:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:



ArtKramr wrote:


did YOU do in the war? Robbie flew 55
missions.
How many did you fly?

I see your point Art, those lives were just ordinary lives, not air crew.

He did 55. How many did you fly?

Arthur Kramer


I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.

You are buying Tarver's lies hook line and sinker. Idiot

No one doubts that his time in combat was stressful and terrifying, and
may even have had some impact on the outcome of the European war; but he
did get to eat decent meals, at a table in comfort, and to sleep in a
safe bed every night.

Not just me,Me and a million other guys. How about you?

His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
tiresome.

I am waiting for you to tell more interesting combat experiences. Start now.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: Dave Holford

snip
His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
tiresome.

I am waiting for you to tell more interesting combat experiences. Start
now.

I agree, let's change the subject.

Art, don't post your stopping Patton story anymore. It is dusturbing, not
funny, or entertaining.

I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was a
while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
a
while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
AAC and live, be a cook.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
a while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
AAC and live, be a cook.

...or a targeteer, or an armorer or a crew-chief or any number of
other indispensible specialties without whom you never would have
gotten bombs anywhere near a target.

You're being simply despicable, Art.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

Jeeze Tarver,

Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
for a "safe" place to drop. I think the other part of the Glen Miller
story was that his AC was transiting a pre-designated salvo area.

Stephen Ambrose tells a similar story of McGovern salvoing from his
B-24. I think they had one hanger and the the final kick shove, or
manipulation that popped the shackle open placed the bomb smack ontop of
an austrian farm house. He was sick. Long after the war, he finally
met the owner of said house. apparantly they hear the Lib coming (B-24s
were not apparantly sneeky) and dove for the root celler some distance
from the house. House went BOOOOOMMM! McGovern said hed DID see a
pilot deliberatly salvo into a civilian area. Some poople are born
jerks.

--
Dana Miller

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: Dana Miller
Date: 9/7/03 7:47 PM Pacific

Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
for a "safe" place to drop.

Let tell you how a hung up bomb is "kicked out". The Bombardier climbs back
into the bomb bay. A hung up bomb can become armed if the fuse end is what is
dangling and the arming wire has pulled out. The entire plane and crew are one
small move away from death under these circumstances. The bombardier is now in
the bombay with bombay doors open and a 180 mph relative wind beating on him..
He reaches back with his left hand and grips the bomb axe mounted on the bomb
bay wall, He pulls it loose and engages the end of the axe into the slot in the
A-2 shackle. Now he twists hard. If all goes well the shackle will now spring
open and the bomb will fall free. The bomb is armed of course since the arrming
wire has already piulled out and the arming vanes have been spinning at high
speed in the relative wind for some time. The bombardier can't look down to see
what is below. In fact he has no vision other then the bomb. His first concern
is to get the bomb out and save the plane and the crew. For an actual account
of one such actual occurance, go to my website and read, "After 58 years this
still burns my ass".


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer