The nature of military justice.

In article ,
(ArtKramr) writes:
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 1/10/04 11:56 AM Pacific Standard Time

seems that when you're brining up Pvt. Slovik as an example,
you're, perhaps, looking at it from the wrong side. The controversy
in Slovik's case wasn't the verdict - He did what he did - but the
sentence. That's really a whole 'nother can of worms, just as it is
today in civilian courts.

What are your thoughts on the verdict?

A good question, and one which deserves a lot of thought.
I can't say for certain, since I don't have the experience in the
1940s Army, exactly what I'd be thinking and feeling at that time.

That being said, If I were on the Court Martial, it's very likely that
I'd vote to convict, giving the evidence that was presented.
FRom all appearences, it appears that Slovik was not well represented,
well advised, or thought through the possible consequences himself.
As you, and other, have noted the Article of War gave great latitude
to individual Courts wrt verdicts and sentencing.

I don't agree with the idea of shooting somebody to encourage others -
it's a poor policy, not just for the poor schmuck that gets shot, but
it leads to an organization that, since it viewed as arbitrary and
difficult to trust, and willing to off you for no good reason, that
surpresses our strengths, individualism, initialtive, and a
willingness to take what may be a bad decision now, than fail due to
trying to walk through the channels of beareaucracy and tradition.
The inevitable end result of such a policy are people who won't do
anything without a recorded direct order, who are constantly covering
their asses, and who will be reporting to their superiors what they
believe the superiors want to hear. That's how the Soviets, and the
Japanese ended up it didn't work for them, either.

Back in 1944, were you aware of teh SLovik case? Did the case itself
make any difference to you, or the people around you? I've no idea
about that, and I'm curious. If you're going to make an example of
somebody, it doesn't do any good if nobody knows about it.

As I understand it, the Slovik case, along with others, was a reason
for the drafting of the UCMJ, and dropping the Articles of War, in an
attempt to rein in the extreme verdicts adn snetences, and the uneven
Justice that occurred under the Articles of War.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Michael Ejercito)
Date: 1/10/04 9:46 AM Pacific Standard Time

would imagine that boards of inquiry would not recommend a court
martial unless conviction is almost certain.



Exactly right. But in some cases the recommendation becomes the verdict no
matter what and regardless of whether it was UCMJ or Articles of War. See
Private Slovik for example which would have turned out the same no matter
what..

Slovik DID desrt his unit, you know.


Michael

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Michael Ejercito)
Date: 1/11/04 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Michael Ejercito)
Date: 1/10/04 9:46 AM Pacific Standard Time

would imagine that boards of inquiry would not recommend a court
martial unless conviction is almost certain.



Exactly right. But in some cases the recommendation becomes the verdict
no
matter what and regardless of whether it was UCMJ or Articles of War. See
Private Slovik for example which would have turned out the same no matter
what..

Slovik DID desrt his unit, you know.


Michael


He and 10,000 other guys. But only he was executed.





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 1/11/04 8:34 AM Pacific Standard Time

Back in 1944, were you aware of teh SLovik case? Did the case itself
make any difference to you, or the people around you? I've no idea
about that, and I'm curious. If you're going to make an exa

Not all the details but that they were going to execute a guy because Ike had
had enough of desertions and wanted to set an example. That's all we knew. But
that alone triggered fairness questions and issues of justice.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 1/11/04 8:34 AM Pacific Standard Time

Back in 1944, were you aware of teh SLovik case? Did the case itself
make any difference to you, or the people around you? I've no idea
about that, and I'm curious. If you're going to make an exa

Not all the details but that they were going to execute a guy because Ike
had
had enough of desertions and wanted to set an example. That's all we knew.
But
that alone triggered fairness questions and issues of justice.

Please point out examples of these "fairness questions and issues of
justice". I have yet to see any evidence that US military personnel raised
any such issues; nor have I seen any reminisces of such issues on the part
of the servicemen who were in theater at the time. I know you are not big on
providing evidence supporting your claims, but do you have anything on this?

Brooks


Brooks


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Not all the details but that they were going to execute a guy because
Ike had
had enough of desertions and wanted to set an example. That's all we
knew. But
that alone triggered fairness questions and issues of justice.

It's unfortunate that U.S. authorities did not look to what happened in
the Commonwealth forces in the previous Big Mistake. Canada executed
something like 24 men over four years, and in retrospect it looks to have
been a travesty of justice. Australia refused to adopt the executions
policy that the B.E.F. had convinced Canada to apply, and they had no
more problem with desertion than anyone else, likely less.

Anyone recall the details involved in the black marketeers in Italy who
murdered a sergeant (a Provost, I think)? The U.S. members of the
conspiracy got life, and a Canadian was executed, IIRC.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Andrew Chaplin"
Date: 1/12/04 11:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Not all the details but that they were going to execute a guy because
Ike had
had enough of desertions and wanted to set an example. That's all we
knew. But
that alone triggered fairness questions and issues of justice.

It's unfortunate that U.S. authorities did not look to what happened in
the Commonwealth forces in the previous Big Mistake. Canada executed
something like 24 men over four years, and in retrospect it looks to have
been a travesty of justice. Australia refused to adopt the executions
policy that the B.E.F. had convinced Canada to apply, and they had no
more problem with desertion than anyone else, likely less.

Anyone recall the details involved in the black marketeers in Italy who
murdered a sergeant (a Provost, I think)? The U.S. members of the
conspiracy got life, and a Canadian was executed, IIRC.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)





We have equal justice under the law. But some are more equal than others.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer