Requirement to fly departure procedures

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...

Perhaps you haven't seen the departure procedures to which Mr.
Airperson and I have made reference.


I have. How did you conclude that "any departure procedures established for
that airport by the FAA" refers only to noise abatement procedures posted on
the FBO's bulletin board?

wrote in message
...

The only regulation I know about in that regard is that I have to fly at a
VFR altitude.


VFR-on-Top relieves the pilot of the requirement to maintain an altitude
assigned by ATC found in FAR 91.179(a), but it does not relieve him
of the minimum altitude requirements of FAR 91.177(a). While
operating VFR-on-Top the pilot must still maintain the minimum altitude
applicable to his assigned route. If operating on airways, that would be
the MEA or MOCA. If operating off-airways, the pilot would have to
determine the
minimum altitude that complies with FAR 91.177(a).


Sec. 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.

(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary
for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below--

(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in Parts 95 and 97 of
this chapter; or

(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts--

(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous
area in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within
a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or

(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest
obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to
be flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or
route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but
not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned
(based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).


Sec. 91.179 IFR cruising altitude or flight level.

(a) In controlled airspace. Each person operating an aircraft under IFR
in level cruising flight in controlled airspace shall maintain the altitude
or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC. However, if the ATC clearance
assigns "VFR conditions on-top," that person shall maintain an altitude or
flight level as prescribed by Sec. 91.159.

wrote in message
...

Oh, I didn't know that!


Now you do.



In any case, that slice of airspace is a Part
97 IAP, not a MVA chart. The MVA chart is cited in the ASR or PAR Part
97 procedure as applicable to the initial approach segment(s) only.


So what? Below the MVA is below the MVA.

wrote in message
...

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.


It was you that wrote; "That's all good except they can't clear you to
maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA,
or higher." So, again, why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the
MVA? Why would you request it?

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.


What works every time?

wrote in message
...

The only departure procedures in the U.S. Terminal Procedures are IFR
Obstacle and IFR ATC DPs. We're talking of noise abatement departure
procedures here.


Actually, we're talking about FAR 91.129(g):

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for
that airport by the FAA.

(2) Unless otherwise required by the prescribed departure procedure for
that airport or the applicable distance from clouds criteria, each pilot of
a turbine-powered airplane and each pilot of a large airplane must climb to
an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface as rapidly as practicable.



It says "any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA."
"Any" means "one, some, every, or all without specification", and obstacle
departure procedures in the TPP are obviously departure procedures
established by the FAA. So how do you conclude that FAR 91.129(g) is
referring only to noise abatement procedures? If FAR 91.129(g) was meant to
cover noise abatement, what is the purpose of FAR 91.129(h)?

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(h) Noise abatement. Where a formal runway use program has been
established by the FAA, each pilot of a large or turbine-powered airplane
assigned a noise abatement runway by ATC must use that runway. However,
consistent with the final authority of the pilot in command concerning the
safe operation of the aircraft as prescribed in § 91.3(a), ATC may assign a
different runway if requested by the pilot in the interest of safety.

wrote in message
...

Those are special air traffic rules. That is different than the local
noise abatement departures at many Class D airports that have no Part 93
rules.


So what makes you think that "any departure procedures established for that
airport by the FAA" refers to local noise abatement procedures?

"Kris Kortokrax" wrote in message
m...

Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
follows:

Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule

§ 93.119 Aircraft operations.
Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off
from the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
practicable after takeoff.


True enough, but if FAR 91.129(g) was written with Part 93 in mind it would
be redundant, as it is already covered by FAR 91.127(b) and FAR 91.129(a)
requires compliance with FARs 91.126 and 91.127.

Airperson wrote:


Hilton wrote:

wrote:
Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would
you
request it?

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every
time.

Hilton

If I recall correctly what you said is that they cleared you to climb VFR
to
maintain an altitude below MVA. Is that what you said before?

No. I never mentioned VFR. This is what I said:

==================
I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".
==================

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Hilton wrote:

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every
time.


What works every time?

ATC assigns 7000' heading over the hill to Monterey (MRY) from Reid-Hillview
(RHV). I ask for 4000' (for example) adding "I can maintain my own terrain
separation." I then get 4000' or so. BTW: I have no idea what the MVA is
there.

In a 172, getting up to 7000' for 10 minutes of flying is not optimal.

Hilton