China in space.

tscottme wrote:
John C. Baker wrote in message
...
While manned space flight is an impressive technical accomplishment, and
space exploration is important to mankind's understanding of himself, I
have one thing to say to Beijing: "Welcome to 1961."

Standby for garish polyester clothing and bitter, ugly women without
bras.

ROFL! On the other hand, I might make a visit to The Cavern.

Cheers
David

robert arndt wrote:

Andreas,

[...]
So, don't assume that any future German manned launch would be an ESA
peace mission. If Sanger is ever built the very first payload might
very well be a spy sat or other military package.


There is no "German" space program, it's all European (i.e. ESA). And
remember that Germany has been bashed recently for its _lack_ of
military enthusiasm.

Even if not built
and a German rocket is launched instead, German nationalism will
guarantee a different name.
Raumfahrer? Never. Raumjaeger or Jaegernaut, probably.


"German nationalism"?? Where (or when!) the **** are you living?!?
It's not 1945 anymore! For the record, I'm a German with a more than
average interest in space flight, and I have _never_ seen terms like
"Raumjäger" or "Jägernaut" (ridiculous!! - whoever thought of this
can't possibly be a native speaker of German!) in a German publication
(since the late '70s at least).

Andreas

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote in message ...
"Ed Majden" writes:

The American space efforts were not necessarily done on their own
either. I think Mr. Newton should be given some credit along with Mr. Von
Braun and his crew. Canadian born Jim Chamberlin chief designer of the
CF-105 AVRO Arrow was basically the guy that designed the Gemini space
craft. He was one of a number of AVRO Canada engineers that headed south to
work for NASA after the sad cancellation of the Arrow project. See:
http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1999/07/06/64.asp Scientific efforts are build of
the shoulders of scientists of many nations, not just one. I think the
Chinese should be congratulated! I only hope their efforts are peaceful
ones and not cold war one-up-man-ship as was the case in the past.

Bravo for a good post amongst the rubbish! In Japan there is great
effort to continue to improve their launch rockets, but at present
there is not enough confidence to go to manned launches on their
own. The Chinese are indeed to be congratulated, vey impressive
indeed, no matter what help they had - that, after all, is the point
of scientific progress.

Not to dump on the PRC's endeavor here, but "impressive" seems a bit
much. What is so impressive about them today matching US/Russian
technology of the 1960's, while conducting a "feat" that has little or
no real value, scientific or otherwise? Nor have they, with this
event, demonstrated much in the line of "scientific progress"--the
whole man-going-around-the-earth-in-space-merely-because-he-can is
kind of passe (by at least three decades). Just what new item, or
theoretical development, or experament, was accomplished here? None.
If they were truly interested in "scientific progress" they would have
been clamoring to join the ISS effort, or develop efficient and useful
unmanned payloads--but this particular mission is little more than an
internal propoganda feat designed for their own domestic consumption.
If you are really looking for a PRC space feat, it would be their
emerging capability to compete in the commercial launch business
(albeit no doubt largely due to their still-significant ability to
control domestic costs).

Brooks

"Ed Majden" wrote in message news:Lfgjb.103719$6C4.38239@pd7tw1no...
"Gene Storey" wrote in message

Looks like a complete copy of the Soviet space program, down to the
pressure suit, and the name "cosmonaut." How can they go wrong?

The American space efforts were not necessarily done on their own
either.

True, but nobody has said it was. We took advantage of the talents of
a lot of folks who came over here--which in and of itself is a pretty
good talent of the US.

I think Mr. Newton should be given some credit along with Mr. Von
Braun and his crew. Canadian born Jim Chamberlin chief designer of the
CF-105 AVRO Arrow was basically the guy that designed the Gemini space
craft.

Canadian born, yes--but a US citizen from the early sixties, as were
Von Braun and crew. Which makes them Americans in the truest sense of
the word. And to be completely honest, Chamberlin was the Gemini
project manager, not "the designer", and moved from that post in 1963
because of budgeting problems within his purview, and possibly some
personal conflicts (he reportedly was not a "people person", to say
the least). That does not take away from his substantial contributions
to Mercury, Gemini, and even the Apollo programs (he also did some
early work on the shuttle).

He was one of a number of AVRO Canada engineers that headed south to
work for NASA after the sad cancellation of the Arrow project. See:
http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1999/07/06/64.asp Scientific efforts are build of
the shoulders of scientists of many nations, not just one. I think the
Chinese should be congratulated! I only hope their efforts are peaceful
ones and not cold war one-up-man-ship as was the case in the past.

I am much more impressed by the Chinese effort to compete in the
commercial launch business than I am in this
reminiscent-of-the-early-sixties propoganda ploy.If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

Brooks

If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

Absolutely agree. Kicking in to the ISS, offering their services in heavy
lifting, etc., would gain them far more than this Gagarin-esque flight and a
near duplicate of early Soviet space plans. I think this flight was a
monumental achievement for the PRC, but the postflight interview with the
Taikonaut seemed a blast from the past, with party slogans and embedded phrases
that show their program is under the Communist banner, intended to spread their
message into the reaches of space. That is sad, and I think it detracts from
the accomplishment of the Chinese people.

v/r
Gordon

"Kevin Brooks"
I am much more impressed by the Chinese effort to compete in the
commercial launch business than I am in this
reminiscent-of-the-early-sixties propoganda ploy.If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

I somehow doubt that they were asked or invited to join the ISS effort.
As for progress, you must learn to crawl before you can walk. ESA in Europe
did this with their launch facilities. Indeed, they have not put a man in
space but they don't have the deep pockets that the USA has. If news
stories are correct China plans on building their own space station and
perhaps sending a man to the Moon. The USA program to do this was a
propaganda stunt at the time. Beat the Soviets at all costs. There were of
course scientific spin-offs but if science was the primary goal, why did
they only send one planetary geologist to the Moon?

In article ,
Kevin Brooks wrote:
I am much more impressed by the Chinese effort to compete in the
commercial launch business than I am in this
reminiscent-of-the-early-sixties propoganda ploy.If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

Eh? You mentioned "scientific advances" and "ISS" in the same sentence.
I'm not entirely sure I see any relationship between scientific advances
and Fredovitch.

OTOH, China is launching Double Star as a joint mission with ESA
in the fairly near future as an add-on/follow-on to Cluster II, and
that is a mission which should provide significant scientific gain.

OTOH#2, Long March looks to be shaping up to being one of the more
useful launchers, possibly trailing only Vostok and Proton.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

In article ,
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
OTOH#2, Long March looks to be shaping up to being one of the more
useful launchers, possibly trailing only Vostok and Proton.

oops.

s/Soyuz/Vostok.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

"Ed Majden" wrote in message news:A%Wjb.114508$9l5.38880@pd7tw2no...
"Kevin Brooks"
I am much more impressed by the Chinese effort to compete in the
commercial launch business than I am in this
reminiscent-of-the-early-sixties propoganda ploy.If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

I somehow doubt that they were asked or invited to join the ISS effort.

I imagine that had they wanted in, it would have been
acceptable--Russia is part of it, so why would the PRC have been
excluded?

As for progress, you must learn to crawl before you can walk.

By that reasoning, every nation wishing to enter into the commercial
aviation field has to first experament with gliders, etc.? I
disagree--there was never any need for them to follow the same path as
what the rest of us did forty years ago. What would have been more
noteworthy was had they skipped this stage entirely, based upon the
vast pool of knowledge already available from previous space
operations. Just what exactly did this flight *really* accomplish?
They launched some four or five unmanned capsules before this manned
flight--add up the cost incurred in all of that and determine if the
net value of being able to say "we sent a guy around the earth, just
like the US and Russia did forty years ago!" was worth it.

ESA in Europe
did this with their launch facilities. Indeed, they have not put a man in
space but they don't have the deep pockets that the USA has.

Excuse me, but China is not exactly known as having unlimited
resources, either. Look at their average standard of living, and then
tell me this was really a great idea.

If news
stories are correct China plans on building their own space station and
perhaps sending a man to the Moon. The USA program to do this was a
propaganda stunt at the time. Beat the Soviets at all costs. There were of
course scientific spin-offs but if science was the primary goal, why did
they only send one planetary geologist to the Moon?

Because the geology could better be done here on earth? Hard to do the
old "taste test" (trust me, such a critter does exist in the field of
"seat of the pants" geotech engineering) in the vacuum of space .

I note that the PRC is not really being very forthcoming with their
future plans (if any), unlike the US was (which makes it much easier
for them to deny failure, since they don't commit to anything in the
first place). And based on what we have seen this week, if it does
develop the way you see it, we'll see maybe a Salyut/Skylab class PLA
space station in place around 2020 (again maintaining that all
important 40-year lag in their "scientific progress").

Brooks

nt (Gordon) wrote in message ...
If they were really
interested in scientific advances, they would continue with their
launch business and join the ISS effort, instead of repeating the
feats of others forty years after the fact.

Absolutely agree. Kicking in to the ISS, offering their services in heavy
lifting, etc., would gain them far more than this Gagarin-esque flight and a
near duplicate of early Soviet space plans. I think this flight was a
monumental achievement for the PRC, but the postflight interview with the
Taikonaut seemed a blast from the past, with party slogans and embedded phrases
that show their program is under the Communist banner, intended to spread their
message into the reaches of space. That is sad, and I think it detracts from
the accomplishment of the Chinese people.

v/r
Gordon

Yep. I can't help but believe that despite all the hype we continually
see about the "new" China, it remains a bit too firmly embedded in the
old Maoist past. Their progress in their launch capabilities has been
very impressive--but this little sideshow did nothing to impress
anyone with any degree of understanding of the field, and instead was
obviously focused solely at their own teeming masses--domestic
propoganda writ large. They sent a man into space, but at what cost?
For gosh sakes, we (the rest of the world) still look to them as the
breeding place for the various influenza strains, courtesy of their
still living in too close a proximity to their danged ducks and
pigs--better if they had spent part of this latest investment on their
nascent commercial launch business, and the rest on keeping things
like SAR's from erupting in the first place.

Brooks