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#1
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Help me clear up my brain fart
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!" "Never use more than 20 degrees bank!" "Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency landing." These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL, you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this is really twisted up in my head. Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all contradict everything about slips on final and the famous "low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings? In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe. Right? Thanks, Ekim |
#2
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I'll bet you had a young, relatively low time instructor.
Slips for landing are common and safe. I use them all the time. Well, not all the time, but I like to come in high and slip away excess altitude. That way, I always have the field made no matter what the engine decides to do. Keep the ball centered in cruise and in turns, unless you're slipping in a turn. A lot of times I throw in a little top rudder in the base to final turn to bleed off excess altitude. You don't want to skid in a turn, but when slipping the tendency when you get slow is for the high wing to drop, thus bringing you automatically into a wings level attitude. If you're skidding, the bottom wing can drop out and you can end up upside down in a hurry. Not fun at 1000' agl. Just watch your speed, don't get too slow and you'll be fine. And of course the ball will be out of the box when you're slipping. And unless you're flying a B52 or an Ercoupe, you'll have to slip with the ball out of the center to land in a crosswind unless you feel like folding up your landing gear. Remember, a good laning is any one you can walk away from. A great landing means you get to use the plane again. 20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding range to the runway. Not safe at all. As long as you keep your turns coordinated, maostly being careful not to skid (ball towards the high wing) 30 degrees is common. I often go 45 degrees in the pattern, but I fly the same plane all the time (mine) and it's more forgiving in the stall than most. JMHO, and worth what ou paid for it. mike regish "Ekim" wrote in message om... "Never cross control!!!" "Keep that ball centered!" "Never use more than 20 degrees bank!" "Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency landing." These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL, you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this is really twisted up in my head. Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all contradict everything about slips on final and the famous "low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings? In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe. Right? Thanks, Ekim |
#3
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I used to keep my pattern turns to 15 degrees and could fly tight, make the
airfield if the engine quits, patterns with no problem. Not all planes will do this but a 172 and a 152 will. Now that I have more experience, I go up to 25 but keep to 20 most of the time. Everything else you wrote, I agree with. A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head: If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final. You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold. Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot. If you did make your turn too close, getting back on centerline will get you set up for a proper go around. -- Roger Long mike regish wrote in message 20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding range to the runway. Not safe at all. |
#4
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Whoa. I do all that stuff. It's worked for me for a long time. Use the
controls to make the airplane do what you want it to do. Maybe go out with an "experienced" CFI and explore some of those things in more depth so you understand them. "Ekim" wrote in message om... "Never cross control!!!" "Keep that ball centered!" "Never use more than 20 degrees bank!" "Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency landing." These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL, you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this is really twisted up in my head. Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all contradict everything about slips on final and the famous "low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings? In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe. Right? Thanks, Ekim |
#5
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One thing is for sure with that kind of training experience, you will never,
ever be able to fly a conventional gear aircraft. It's getting more unfortunate that CFIs do not have to have a tailwheel check out before applying the trade. Their lack of experience is robbing the aviation world of half the fun. Just try a crab landing with the CG behind the main gears and see what happens. R Little -- ---------------------------------------------------- This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com "Ekim" wrote in message om... "Never cross control!!!" "Keep that ball centered!" "Never use more than 20 degrees bank!" "Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency landing." These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL, you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this is really twisted up in my head. Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all contradict everything about slips on final and the famous "low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings? In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe. Right? Thanks, Ekim |
#6
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"Ekim" wrote in message om... Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? Yes, by an ignorant flight instructor. While keeping in coordinated flight will certainly alleviate the chances of spinning, a slip doesn't mean you necessarily will. Avoiding stalling is really important. You can't spin without stalling and even stalls without spins on approach aren't a good idea. It seems to all contradict everything about slips on final and the famous "low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings? You have to slip at some point in a crosswind unless you're going to touch down in a crab which is bad for most aircraft. In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe. Right? Well slips are ok. Steeper banks are still a problem. Remember your accellerated stall drills. |
#7
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#8
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In article ,
"Roger Long" om wrote: A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head: If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final. You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold. Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot. While I agree with your intent that you shouldn't tighten the turn trying to lineup, you should be able to fly a safe, coordinated turn without "take your eyes off the runway, look at the instruments". On the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit. -- Dale L. Falk There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html |
#9
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On
the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit. Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane. Use the instruments to get your configuration and attitude right, then get your eyes back outside. You should always be dividing your attention between inside and outside. What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway centerline. A short period of using the instruments to be sure airspeed, ball, and bank are not out of safe limits isn't going to significantly increase the chances of a midair. The final approach should have been cleared before the turn. By the time an overshoot becomes an issue, the most probable midair will be someone hitting you from behind and nobody is looking back there anyway. Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all through the pattern. What I'm really saying is that just after you realize that you've overshot is an important time to do this again. Don't depart from the airspeed / bank parameters you've established for the pattern in order to salvage a botched turn. Just stick with the program and you'll probably find there is still plenty of time to make the runway. If not, a go around is always a good thing to practice. -- Roger Long |
#10
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