Question about training costs

unicate wrote:
But not everyone learns at the same rate. Some people simply take longer
to become proficient. If you're taking a little longer than most at some
element, the last thing you need is someone chiding you about how long
Mortimer Schnerd took to do it. Within reason, I couldn't care less how
long it took you or the next person; my only concern is MY OWN progress.
If it takes me a few hours longer than you or than "most people" to be
proficient, why should anyone have a problem with that?


Did it take you eight years of full time study to earn a bachelor's degree?
After all, four years is only a recommendation that some are able to acheive.

Almost twice as long isn't just "a little longer". It's a huge stack of spare
change.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Most people here would be happy with $10.600 for their license.
Last number I heard was to expect from 12K to 14K euro for your PPL.


-Kees

Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
for ppl now.

Thanks

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:

Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.

Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
school for?

40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
40 * 35.00 = $5,000
10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:

I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
Did it take you eight years of full time study to earn a bachelor's degree?
After all, four years is only a recommendation that some are able to acheive.

Bad analogy. Unless you're doing it in the military or wealthy enough to
to devote all your waking hours at it, the biggest percentage of people
at FBOs or other schools are not doing flight training "full time". And
40 hours isn't a recommendation, it is the minimum requirement. They
regulations don't make any judgments about your aptitude if you exceed
that minimum by x-number of hours...that judgment is made during the
checkride, whether you have 40 or 140 hours.

I was addressing your comment that maybe the person "lacks aptitude" and
"should quit", not how much more it was going to cost. If the school or
the CFI are milking the customer for more $$ when they know he/she is
ready to move forward, he/she needs to speak up or go elsewhere; but if
the customer needs or wants more time, and if they're okay with spending
more of their spare change, who else's business is it to pass judgment
on how long they took or how much they spent?

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

[snip]

Getting back to the average number of hours flown by students in your area: I
have to wonder if the reason the numbers are so high is because the FBO or
flight training program is greedy. There's no excuse I can see for why
it takes
people twice as long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or thereabouts.
1) yes, the schools are greedy
2) the way flight training is set up (at 90% of the schools), there is NO
motivation for a CFI (or the school) to get the student finished in
the minimum period of time
3) Far too many CFIs are marginally competent at teaching, hence the
student is not on a success plan. Just using one of the well-known
syllabi does not mean a success plan. The CFIs do not understand how
to diagnose the student's learning style, to adjust to that style, how
to diagnose why a student isn't learning, etc.
4) Most private students do not know about these news groups, have little or
no knowledge of what constitutes a good CFI
5) Most private students are subject to the "authority" or "professional"
syndrome -- they understand and know they are ignorant in the topic,
know they can be injured or killed, and rely on the expertise of
the CFI to train them. And are reluctant to contradict the CFI. Hence
they don't realize (until it's really expensive) that the CFI is
a label and not a teacher.

But we've hashed, rehashed and belittled these points for years in this
news group. You finished in a minimum time - wonderful. Mazel tov.
Spectacular.

The statistics I'd really like to see concerns advanced ratings and such.
Once the PPL is finished, the pilot has a much better understanding of
the flight training process and the "economics" as well as the pitfalls
of choosing and dealing with instructors. So what's the success rate
and number of hours to complete an instrument rating, commercial, ATP?

I consider your flight frequency ideal for a student. I just don't understand
your results. People have been earning private pilot's licenses in less
than 50 hours literally for generations.

Consider the incompetence of CFIs. Far too many are not instructors,
they can merely pass a test. I just finished a discussion concerning
a "certification" test program in the computer industry. The initials
of the certification merely means the person can memorize trivia (nay,
minutia!) from a book. It does not indicate any problem solving skills
or dealing with situations not covered in the book.

I don't need to memorize trivia -- that's why reference manuals are
written. What I need is problem analysis and solving skills. These
skills are NOT taught to potential CFIs!

If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks aptitude and should quit.
Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the job done without screwing
people.

Go back to my original comments. Most PPL students do not realize they
are being screwed until far past a reasonable point. And this gets back
to the elephant in the room argument. At some point the monetary and
effort exceeds the student's "level of pain" and they quit.

Personally, I blame the FAA-approved process for creating CFIs. It
stinks. It's not effective. It is easily a large part of the problem,
if not the the underlying basis of the problem.

I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started
music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a
Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of
money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc.
the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think
there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection
of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them.

Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus?
Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument
rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that
isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future.

Blanche wrote:
I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started
music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a
Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of
money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc.
the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think
there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection
of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them.

Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus?
Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument
rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that
isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future.

That's another good point. The Cessna Pilot Course uses a C172SP in
their videos. Our school had other aircraft that were far less expensive
to rent and just as capable of getting an applicant through the course,
but because the videos used C172SPs, some people chose that airplane so
they wouldn't have to interpolate the data used in the examples. And of
course, employees were encouraged to encourage use of the SPs.

The added expense for an SP over a C152 is about $40-45/hr; over an
older model C172, $15-20/hr. Multiply that by 50 or 60 hours flight
time, and that's enough, or almost enough, to buy yourself a nice Garmin
handheld! Not that all the bells and whistles in the C172SP aren't
really nice to have at your fingertips, but how many of those bells and
whistles do you *NEED* to learn how to fly? and how many hours and
dollars are you spending learning to use those bells and whistles during
the training? Sure is a nicer ride for the CFI, though! If a person
really likes the C172SP, transitioning can always be done after the
license when you are spending the money on instruction for that
airplane, not on learning how to fly.

(Not criticizing those who choose to do the training in the SP -- if
it's affordable, why not? Just saying that that's *ONE* of the reasons
why quotes from schools with these newer airplanes are so much more
than, for example, someone learning in a C152.)

I completely agree.

My FAA 8710-1a has a TT of 87.9 hours on it. That breaks down to 61.7
hours of dual and 26.2 hrs of solo. This took WAAAAYYYY longer than I
had anticipated. My mom, who was also instructed by my Dad, got her PP
in about 60 hrs and 31 days. That expectation I think hindered me, as
well as not being prepared for my flight lessons. I had really thought
in the beginning that I could knock it out in 40 and had a budget for
about 60. Note, that is REAL time, not TACH time for all but a few
flights. My budget survived on Tach time, thank god!

Chris....taking my checkride in about 48 hours (Sat 8/27)

Ray wrote:
Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students.
I got my private license in 44 hours.


I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people the impression that
the private can be easily done in 40 hours. A lot of people do finish
in 40 hours, but most people don't. An unrealistic expectation of
finishing in 40 hours can lead to frustration. I took about 80 hours to
finish and I wouldn't consider myself inept or ham-fisted (whatever
that's supposed to mean).

- Ray

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
om...


80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged
it
out over too long a period, calendar wise. I flew every other day until I
was
finished. I figure that gave me time enough to digest what I was shown
but not
so long that I would forget things. If you drag things out excessively,
you
waste a tremendous amount of time recovering old material.

I wonder what the average time is hours wise and calendar wise. Correlation
to shorter calendar time and hours?

Started lessons on June 16th, passed review on September 9th - 84 days, 46.5
hours. Took ground school concurrently, passed written on August 8th.
Longest gap - six days.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.

--ken


Tolwyn wrote:
Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
for ppl now.

Thanks

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:


Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.


Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground

school for?


40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00

40 * 35.00 = $5,000

10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300

Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:


I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

Really just looking for my ppl right now. But the instrument rating
and so on I'd want to add on at some point. Westwind seems to be
the biggest I've found here so far. What route did you take?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, Ken Hughes
wrote:

What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.

--ken


Tolwyn wrote:
Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
for ppl now.

Thanks

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:


Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.


Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground

school for?


40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00

40 * 35.00 = $5,000

10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300

Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:


I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)