Gear Warning

At 21:54 16 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:

If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you

think you would still filter it out?

Wow, nobody bit on this one?

9B

I had an old dragon of a schoolteacher who used to bark at us
eight-year old kids and, if we misbehaved, would rap us over the
knuckles with a wooden ruler (this was in the old days!).

Her voice would probably do the trick! Failing which, how about a
mechanism to rap you over the knuckles while the schoolmaam berates
your stupidity?

Wives tend not to use voice commands so much as "the look".

Mike

At 01:42 17 November 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
Pilots who can't respond to a gear warning or radio
call probably
shouldn't be flying at all! This isn't a big multi-tasking
job. What
would such a person do if the canopy popped open, the
brake handle came
off in his hands or the spoilers opened on takeoff?

In a sailplane with a left-handed gear handle, all
it takes is- brakes
closed, gear down, brakes open again. I timed it at
3 to 4 seconds in
an ASW 20.

With a right-handed gear handle, you have to close
brakes, switch
hands, put gear down, switch back, brakes open, in
4 to 6 seconds. On
downwind, you have plenty of time to do this and even
on final if it
isn't too short. At 50 knots, 6 seconds represents
no moe than about
600 feet - say 200 meters.

BGA sounds a bit like a mother hen!

Mike



It's only a recommendation.

At 09:42 17 November 2005, im
Green wrote:
Ever seen a pilot with a fixation flying off the end
of the runway with
his gear going up and down instead of his spoilers?
Surprising how even
competent people can get caught out and flustered by
the unexpected. This
is a cost versus safety argument and you takes your
pick but BGA
recommendations are not cost-orientated.


No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
the u/c at the last minute.

I mentioned the fitting of a 'wheel-up/airbrakes out'
warning mechanism when I had my Jantar-3 refitted in
Poland.
They would not hear of it !

Oh - and it is quite possible to land wheel-up after
completing landing checks.
Believe me !

sta13.

At 09:42 17 November 2005, im
Green wrote:
Ever seen a pilot with a fixation flying off the end
of the runway with
his gear going up and down instead of his spoilers?
Surprising how even
competent people can get caught out and flustered by
the unexpected. This
is a cost versus safety argument and you takes your
pick but BGA
recommendations are not cost-orientated.


No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
the u/c at the last minute.

I mentioned the fitting of a 'wheel-up/airbrakes out'
warning mechanism when I had my Jantar-3 refitted in
Poland.
They would not hear of it !

Oh - and it is quite possible to land wheel-up after
completing landing checks.
Believe me !

sta13.

Stanford Korwin wrote:

No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
the u/c at the last minute.

It seems a very rare event, at least in the US, as I don't remember any.
Perhaps some US pilots can offer examples. I do know a number of people
that have landed wheel up, of course. I can remember an incident where a
gear up landing at a small airstrip blocked the runway long enough to
making it difficult for the other landing gliders to do so safely.
Another incident that blocked a runway triggered an accident - no
injuries, fortunately, but the landing glider was damaged.

So, my experience is it's generally better to have the pilot get the
gear down, though I would hesitate to say anything on the radio if the
glider was already close to the ground. Certainly letting a pilot land
gear up on a wide grass runway, which would not be blocked and causes no
damage to glider, is the safest procedure. Narrow paved runways may tilt
the safety judgment in the other direction.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

So, my experience is it's generally better to have the pilot get the
gear down, though I would hesitate to say anything on the radio if the
glider was already close to the ground. Certainly letting a pilot land
gear up on a wide grass runway, which would not be blocked and causes no
damage to glider, is the safest procedure. Narrow paved runways may tilt
the safety judgment in the other direction.

Agree with Eric on this. I have flown at several UK sites and many US
sites. The landing options at UK sites are usually such that a
disabled glider is not a hazard to others. In US several sites only
have one paved or dirt runway available and a disabled glider can make
landing hazardous for all competitors that finish soon after. Parowan
would be a good example of that.

I have fitted gear warning in both my std class gliders. In over 2000
hours it has never gone off unexpectedly, but I intend to put the gear
down if it ever does. 2 weekends ago I had a call from another
finisher while I was on a close in base leg. He asked if my gear was
down. I had plenty of time to verify it was and to have put it down if
it wasn't. Keep calling me! I'll decide if I have time to put it down
or accept a gear up landing.


Andy

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Stanford Korwin wrote:

No one, as far as I know, has ever been hurt while
landing wheel-up - but there have been a number of
injuries to those losing control while trying to lower
the u/c at the last minute.

It seems a very rare event, at least in the US, as I don't remember any.
Perhaps some US pilots can offer examples. I do know a number of people
that have landed wheel up, of course. I can remember an incident where a
gear up landing at a small airstrip blocked the runway long enough to
making it difficult for the other landing gliders to do so safely.
Another incident that blocked a runway triggered an accident - no
injuries, fortunately, but the landing glider was damaged.

So, my experience is it's generally better to have the pilot get the
gear down, though I would hesitate to say anything on the radio if the
glider was already close to the ground. Certainly letting a pilot land
gear up on a wide grass runway, which would not be blocked and causes no
damage to glider, is the safest procedure. Narrow paved runways may tilt
the safety judgment in the other direction.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I've looked at the aftermath of a few two seater gear-up landings. The
posterior of the rear seat occupant got perilously close to the highly
abrasive runway surface before it stopped grinding away the bottom of the
fuselage. Not all gear-up's may be benign.

Bill Daniels

I agree that they are pre-landing checks, not downwind
checks, and should be carried out prior to joining
the circuit.

At 19:36 17 November 2005, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\.
wrote:
In short, No.

One of the biggest controversies in U.K. clubs is about
whether to do or not
to do downwind checks. Some clubs insist, some clubs
think it is rubbish.

So far as I know, none of the professional national
coaches employed by the
BGA to train instructors has ever called for downwind
checks.
To my certain knowledge this includes Bill Scull, Chris
Rollings, Brian
Spreckley, G. Dale, many others. However, when they
came across a
candidate who had been trained to use downwind checks
they did not actually
insist on a change.

The BGA Instructors' Manual in Chapter 4 - CHECK LISTS
is 3 pages and has
this on page 4.3: -

'Pre-landing checks.

'The use of UFSTAL, WULF and other variations on the
theme is inappropriate
on the downwind leg of the circuit. The pilot is
better off flying the
glider correctly, in the right place, and looking out.
The use of a
pre-landing check prior to joining the circuit (a pre-circuit
check as
opposed to a down-wind check) is mentioned also in
chapter 14.'

Chapter 14 - CIRCUIT PLANNING (PART ONE) is 6 pages
of text and 4 of
illustrations and has this on page 14.6: -

Under 'Before going to the high key area', 7 bullet
points, with the last
one: -

'make a positive decision to join the circuit to land,
and plan to arrive at
the high key area between 700ft. to 800ft.
prepare for landing by;
doing pre-circuit checks, if appropriate
making sure the straps are tight and deciding
on a suitable approach
speed. In gliders so equipped, dump any water ballast
and lower the
undercarriage
continuing to fly the glider at normal speed (i.e.
best glide angle),
but speeding up appropriately in any sink.'

On page 14-10 under 'Advice to Instructors',

4th of 7 items, 'Downwind',

'Don't confuse the demonstration by introducing pre-landing
checks as such.
It's all there anyway, and the pre-landing checks should
be carried out
before starting the circuit. Reciting a mnemonic
on the downwind leg is
inappropriate, and in any case, being able to recite
a check shouldn't be
confused with an ability to plan a circuit.'

I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel
up, when asked if they
did pre-landing checks they say 'oh, yes!'. The point
of course is that
those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying
training gliders with a
fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check
item but doing
nothing.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
et...


W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

In the current, Fifteenth Edition of Laws and Rules
for Glider Pilots of
April 2005 published by the BGA
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/doc...ion15final.pdf
in Part 3 Recommended Practices RP26 on page 58 states:
-

'UNDERCARRIAGE WARNING SYSTEMS

'RP26. The fitting of systems that warn the pilot
of a glider that the
undercarriage is not lowered during the landing approach
IS NOT
RECOMMENDED. This is because if such a system is
fitted and is
activated then the pilot is likely to attempt to lower
the undercarriage
during the final stages of landing. This could result
in mishandling
the aircraft, so causing an accident.

'It is also recommended that if the glider is seen
on the approach
wheel-up, no attempt is made to warn that pilot, using
radio or other
means, for the same reason. The pilot should be
allowed to land
wheels-up.'

I understand that this recommendation was made after
accidents where the
warning was considered to be the cause.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


So does the BGA recommend to use a pre-landing checklist
where the
spoilers are checked? If the spoilers are checked
early in the pattern
then the logic regarding gear warning systems is not
very logical.

At 21:18 16 November 2005, Nigel Pocock wrote:
One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
like background radio chatter and your brain filters
it out (or at least mine does)
Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.

Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
undercarriage warning buzzer.

I know of two accidents causing injury, one serious,
caused by a malfunctioning u/c warning system..
I was taught to look at the u/c lever before going
for the airbrakes and after 3000 hours it hasn't failed.........
yet.