Ground launch and the incremental vanishing of soaring

I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
in four years.

LaGrange-Callaway GA (SES) used to do winch, and according to the airport
manager that was stopped there because it interfered with the
traffic there.

Bend, Oregon couldn't remember when auto-tow was used last, and
after my call the city engineer suggested perhaps they should change the
"auto-tow by special request" to "no auto-tows allowed."
So my inquiry actually perhaps has now closed even the possibility at that
airport.

Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
rejected ground launch entirely. I wonder when aero-tow out of
public airports will completely disappear as well, including aero-retrieve.
Public airport managers certainly can prohibit (in writing) a person
from walking on the runway and hooking up a towline. I suppose a
careful reading of just about every airport policy document already
prohibits this.

I hadn't really believed this until I talked to four airport managers.
Without a clear YES from the Calif. public airport insurance "pool",
and no overriding benefit to the airport, it looks like (non-self launch)
gliders can generally use public airports legally only as
landouts to trailer from. Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
"walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
liability...

Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Does anyone know the numbers of public airports that used to
have tow or ground launch operations years ago vs. today?

Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
support soaring. Well, at least they make good landouts...








--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark James Boyd wrote:
Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

I'm sure there are still a few (mostly auto-tow, I bet). Frankly, as
much as I'd like to see a revival of ground launch in this country,
trying to push it on reluctant public airport managers is an incredibly
bad idea. Random power traffic and 3000 foot cables just don't mix very
well.

Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Without even trying hard, I can think of 10 California public use
airports with aero tows available most days. Yes, there are and will be
problems at some airports. Getting complacent about it is a mistake,
but I don't think there is an immediate danger of getting completely
shut out.

There are a few places I can easily see supporting ground launch
operations, like the still undeveloped Lagoon Valley site, that can no
longer be used for aero tow due to noise issues. For a decent ground
launch site, I would guess at 300 to 500 acres of empty land is
required. For a viable operation, it needs to be within an hour or two
of a major metropolitan area. For halfway decent soaring conditions, it
needs to be away from the coast. Given California geography and real
estate prices, it would be tough to make it work...

Marc

Mark James Boyd wrote:
I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
in four years.

Northwest Soaring in Cle Elum, WA, winch launches:

http://www.northwestsoaring.com/

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...
I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
in four years.

LaGrange-Callaway GA (SES) used to do winch, and according to the airport
manager that was stopped there because it interfered with the
traffic there.

Efficiency and safety are likely to get in the way, politically. We have
ground launched at the local public airport on a demonstration basis during
open hours day with lots of power traffic. However on a day to day basis
the airport manager apparently has rejected CAP plans to aerotow from the
same airport. Why the CAP stopped to ask, I have no idea. Safety was a
minor issue until the taxiways were built. Before that, pilots had to back
taxi on the main runway. I know the airport manager of another local public
airport would love to have us use our winch at his facility (In fact, he's
an instructor at our club). Using main runways with lights is likely a bad
choice in any event. Eventually something will go wrong. A wide grassy
area paralleling the runway might be good, but modern drainage engineering
has made these areas less friendly. Since we have our own airfield, we tend
to confine our winching there.

There are a few publicly funded, uncontrolled airports in on the western
Colorado slope that have been used for ground launch. These are a bit
remote, but great soaring areas and would make excellent camp sites. In
fact, winch launching or auto tow are logistically easier as there's not
avgas on site, meaning an extra vehicle to haul drums if the tow plane comes
along. We plan on using one private (6000') and one public strip (7000')
for winching this summer. Our club used to have a winch wave camp each
September (something we'd like to revive) at a strip to the west
http://www.soarcsa.org/images/pikwinch.jpg. Those are the Steamboats in the
distance. The pilot in the image got his Diamond altitude from the winch at
that site IIRC.

Bend, Oregon couldn't remember when auto-tow was used last, and
after my call the city engineer suggested perhaps they should change the
"auto-tow by special request" to "no auto-tows allowed."
So my inquiry actually perhaps has now closed even the possibility at that
airport.

Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
rejected ground launch entirely. I wonder when aero-tow out of
public airports will completely disappear as well, including
aero-retrieve.
Public airport managers certainly can prohibit (in writing) a person
from walking on the runway and hooking up a towline. I suppose a
careful reading of just about every airport policy document already
prohibits this.

I hadn't really believed this until I talked to four airport managers.
Without a clear YES from the Calif. public airport insurance "pool",
and no overriding benefit to the airport, it looks like (non-self launch)
gliders can generally use public airports legally only as
landouts to trailer from. Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
"walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
liability...

Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Does anyone know the numbers of public airports that used to
have tow or ground launch operations years ago vs. today?

Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
support soaring. Well, at least they make good landouts...

If you want unencumbered access for soaring, something like this is prudent
http://www.airsailing.org/

Although it may be also quiet cheap to lease land on a long term lease (when
compared to buying and paying taxes) and set up a ground launch operation.
I can show you places within a 45min drive of my place where we could quite
literally pay out 10K worth of spectra behind a vehicle and launch to great
heights. HG pilots use this area for auto launch frequently.

There are a number of interesting strips in the west. One potentially
excellent soaring site is at Powell, Wyoming where there is a 6000ft
airfield the ends over a 700ft drop into the prevailing winds;^). Another
site we plan on testing. There are a few other Parowan like sites around
the American West.

The places to look for are potential ridge top or ridge bottom sites. In
some cases a BLM patent can be secured and away you go. It just takes some
vision and initiative and a sensible approach. The SSA club committee
highly recommends organizing a 501c(3) and pressing ahead with securing
access to a primo site. Getting it close in may be problematic. Why PASCO
or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.

Frank Whiteley

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:
Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

I'm sure there are still a few (mostly auto-tow, I bet). Frankly, as
much as I'd like to see a revival of ground launch in this country,
trying to push it on reluctant public airport managers is an incredibly
bad idea.

I'm guessing this could eventually evolve into the same statement about
aero-tow in 10-20 years.

Random power traffic and 3000 foot cables just don't mix very
well.

To some extent the same is true of 250 foot ropes. Again I'm sure this
could marginally reduce aero-tow availaility over 10-20 years,

Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Without even trying hard, I can think of 10 California public use
airports with aero tows available most days. Yes, there are and will be
problems at some airports. Getting complacent about it is a mistake,
but I don't think there is an immediate danger of getting completely
shut out.

Ten out of about 300 public airports (of which I've landed at 250)?
This is about 4%. I think this sucks. I'm not gonna run the numbers
now, but I'd guess 12% of these 300 airports, 36 of them, are
5000 ft+, unattended, and with light enough traffic that some
coordination, NOTAMs, and support/qualification by SSA/FAA/DPEs
would result in no more than a few occasional runway lights
getting zinged, and a heck of a lot of FUN for a lot of folks.

For the price of a $220 towhook, some $10 rings, $100 worth of rope,
a door hinge, and some truck gas? This seems like a real winner.
A $1500 2-22, $320 for liability only, some elbow grease
(mostly to fix up the ol' beast), and we got a party.
Alternately, a nice shiny G-103's probably better

New Coalinga, Porterville, Delano, Visalia, Merced, Castle, Yuba,
Lincoln-Harder, McClellan, Oroville, etc...

The jump guys get permission to use Crow's Landing...how about
auto tow?


There are a few places I can easily see supporting ground launch
operations, like the still undeveloped Lagoon Valley site, that can no
longer be used for aero tow due to noise issues. For a decent ground
launch site, I would guess at 300 to 500 acres of empty land is
required. For a viable operation, it needs to be within an hour or two
of a major metropolitan area. For halfway decent soaring conditions, it
needs to be away from the coast. Given California geography and real
estate prices, it would be tough to make it work...

Oh, I don't believe it is tough. It would take one thing to make it work:
get the Calif. airport insurance pool to say yes. Then do it at all
of those airports listed. They all meet your criteria. One
airport saying yes and a coupla accident free trials and a nice
SOP, and I bet there'd be FUN and interest.

Did I mention it'd be cheap? Isn't this one of the real
big problems in this sport? Boy I'd love to see auto-tow be
"OK" at all these airfields. From what I've read historically,
this used to be standard "no problem" at a public airport.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
Why PASCO or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.

I can't speak for RESCO, but I guess I can for PASCO. We are
essentially an educational and promotional organization, so we aren't in
a position to actually operate anything. We've had enough problems
figuring out how to manage the set of scales we keep around for Region
11 contest use.

Now, if anyone wants to talk about getting a group together and
building/buying a modern winch for use in Region 11, talk to me...

Marc

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Efficiency and safety are likely to get in the way, politically. We have
ground launched at the local public airport on a demonstration basis during
open hours day with lots of power traffic. However on a day to day basis
the airport manager apparently has rejected CAP plans to aerotow from the
same airport. Why the CAP stopped to ask, I have no idea.

CAP always has to ask...

There are a few publicly funded, uncontrolled airports in on the western
Colorado slope that have been used for ground launch. These are a bit
remote, but great soaring areas and would make excellent camp sites. In
fact, winch launching or auto tow are logistically easier as there's not
avgas on site, meaning an extra vehicle to haul drums if the tow plane comes
along. We plan on using one private (6000') and one public strip (7000')

Excellent points. Towplanes are a bit in need of support equipment..

As I count up the 5000+ runways without a tower in CA,
there are 38, but only 4 of them: L04 (Holtville),
SAS (Salton Sea), L94 (Tehachapi MTN), PRB (Paso Robles)
have no lights.

Interesting, Tehachapi MTN lists "auto tow by special arrangement" and is
apparently a public airport. Hmmm...

I've been to the other three also. Salton Sea is just a big flat
dry salt lake with a windsock and some "markings." Ideal place.
Holtville and Paso Robles have clutter on runway sides.

If you want unencumbered access for soaring, something like this is prudent
http://www.airsailing.org/

Although it may be also quiet cheap to lease land on a long term lease (when
compared to buying and paying taxes) and set up a ground launch operation.
I can show you places within a 45min drive of my place where we could quite
literally pay out 10K worth of spectra behind a vehicle and launch to great
heights. HG pilots use this area for auto launch frequently.

The places to look for are potential ridge top or ridge bottom sites. In
some cases a BLM patent can be secured and away you go. It just takes some
vision and initiative and a sensible approach. The SSA club committee
highly recommends organizing a 501c(3) and pressing ahead with securing
access to a primo site. Getting it close in may be problematic. Why PASCO
or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.
Frank Whiteley

Thanks for the ideas, I'll pass them along...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...
I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
in four years.


Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

Permian Soaring Association, Odessa Texas, winch launches every flyable
weekend. We can also auto tow if we want to. We operate from taxiways.
We have a club member on the airport safety board. No problems. Sailplanes
have been auto/aero/winch/ launched from Schleymeyer Field for at least
the last thirty years.

Craig-

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...


Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?


The Vultures Soaring Club winch launch at Marlette MI in the summer months.
Traffic hasn't been too much of a problem just yet but who knows when...


Bob

Kutztown Airport in Kutztown, PA (commercial public use) offered winch
launch until they recently sold their winch. I do not believe that
there was enough interest to support its upkeep.

Within the past several weeks we aero towed from a towered airport in
Harrisburg, PA to retrieve a Blanik which received service there.
While coordination with the tower was necessary, we had no problems,
and must praise the tower personnel for their assistance.

Skip Guimond