instructor technique

Hello all,

A bit of my background. I've been flying power for 3 years (300 hours
... I was "keen" g), and just finished a "concentrated" glider
"conversion" over the past 3 weeks (12 flying days), and now have a
"glider" license. Literrally "glider", as I've been trained to safely
glide locally only, but that's another discussion g.

The club that I trained it, is probably similar to many others. The
instructors are volunteers, and the level of instruction varies from
one individual to another.

When I was flying, I met two other students who started at the same
time that I did. One of them was also a transitioning power pilot,
the other was ab-initio. We all agreed that one of the most annoying
things an instructor can do is to be "on the controls", a.k.a.
"helping" the student, *without* telling the student, i.e. "I will
handle the rudder on the takeoff", or stating "I have control".

Funny how "heavy" the controls felt in an L13, when I went up in one
with an instructor, who specifically wanted me to see how much more
responsive the plane was, compared to a 233 :/ (When I "had control"
while circling in a thermal, I completely let go of the controls, and
amazingly the plane still kept circling without losing altitude or
changing the pitch attitude / bank angle ! )

This was "buried" in another thread, but I thought it had an
interesting point that directly relates to my recent training.

"Chris Reed" wrote in message ...
My only concern is when I'm flying with a new pupil (as a Basic
Instructor I
fly newcomers, handing them over to more experienced instructors once
they've got the basic handling started). I have to take over at
500ft,
so ideally the pupil will fly down to 500 ft.

Why do you have to take control at 500 feet? Assuming that the
student has the aircraft at speed/attitude, and under control.

However, when the nose is high,the speed is washing off and the
rudder pedals are waggling, I'm listening to the aircraft very hard to
make sure I take over before things get nasty - in the K21, it just
wallows around in that situation and I feel much more comfortable!

Why would the nose ever be "high" under 500 ft ? If it starts to get
high, surely you would say something to the student, and they don't
react, you should announce "I have control", and correct it, NOW!

I haven't flown a Puchaz, (only the lowly "233", but I would guess
that as a higher performance glider, that it's going to take *longer*
for it to bleed off speed than a "draggy" 233 does ? And if so, then
the nose would have to high for "many" seconds before the speed got
dangerously low.

Or is the nose attitude in a Puchaz, not much different between "slow"
/ min sink / thermal speed, and landing / approach speeds ?

Mike

next time that happens.. ask him if he wants to fly.. he can pay for the tow
and rental... you have your Certificate now...

BT

"Mike Stramba" wrote in message
m...
Hello all,

A bit of my background. I've been flying power for 3 years (300 hours
.. I was "keen" g), and just finished a "concentrated" glider
"conversion" over the past 3 weeks (12 flying days), and now have a
"glider" license. Literrally "glider", as I've been trained to safely
glide locally only, but that's another discussion g.

The club that I trained it, is probably similar to many others. The
instructors are volunteers, and the level of instruction varies from
one individual to another.

When I was flying, I met two other students who started at the same
time that I did. One of them was also a transitioning power pilot,
the other was ab-initio. We all agreed that one of the most annoying
things an instructor can do is to be "on the controls", a.k.a.
"helping" the student, *without* telling the student, i.e. "I will
handle the rudder on the takeoff", or stating "I have control".

Funny how "heavy" the controls felt in an L13, when I went up in one
with an instructor, who specifically wanted me to see how much more
responsive the plane was, compared to a 233 :/ (When I "had control"
while circling in a thermal, I completely let go of the controls, and
amazingly the plane still kept circling without losing altitude or
changing the pitch attitude / bank angle ! )

This was "buried" in another thread, but I thought it had an
interesting point that directly relates to my recent training.

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
My only concern is when I'm flying with a new pupil (as a Basic
Instructor I
fly newcomers, handing them over to more experienced instructors once
they've got the basic handling started). I have to take over at
500ft,
so ideally the pupil will fly down to 500 ft.

Why do you have to take control at 500 feet? Assuming that the
student has the aircraft at speed/attitude, and under control.

However, when the nose is high,the speed is washing off and the
rudder pedals are waggling, I'm listening to the aircraft very hard to
make sure I take over before things get nasty - in the K21, it just
wallows around in that situation and I feel much more comfortable!

Why would the nose ever be "high" under 500 ft ? If it starts to get
high, surely you would say something to the student, and they don't
react, you should announce "I have control", and correct it, NOW!

I haven't flown a Puchaz, (only the lowly "233", but I would guess
that as a higher performance glider, that it's going to take *longer*
for it to bleed off speed than a "draggy" 233 does ? And if so, then
the nose would have to high for "many" seconds before the speed got
dangerously low.

Or is the nose attitude in a Puchaz, not much different between "slow"
/ min sink / thermal speed, and landing / approach speeds ?

Mike

It is very difficult to have your hand at the controls and feel what a
student does, but to resist the temptation to correct mistakes. This
must be learned! A good instructor course will teach this, a bad won't.

Just talk to the instructor. If nobody tells him, he probably isn't even
aware what he does.

Stefan

Stefan wrote in message ...
Just talk to the instructor. If nobody tells him, he probably isn't even
aware what he does.

I think that he is just used to doing it. How can you *not* be aware
of it?

On my second flight with this guy we were circling in a thermal, and I
asked him, "Do I have control, or do *you* have control ?". He replied
that he was "just helping me". I told him that I wasn't going to
learn anything that way, and he reluctantly said "ok".

This was after his pointed briefing on the ground about that we needed
to be clear about who was in control, and that whoever was would
announce / confirm it.

Mike

This was after his pointed briefing on the ground about that we needed
to be clear about who was in control, and that whoever was would
announce / confirm it.

Mike

Not to condone this behavior as I agree that only one should be flying
unless a demonstration is in progress, may I offer a possible
rationale for it?

Frequently a CFIG may be flying for the first time with a pilot and
until an assessment of skill is completed, the instructor is
protecting his assets until a safe altitude/airspeed/position is
attained. My first few students in the glider suffered from my own
ham-hand until I became more confident in my own ability. Now, I
place my index finger lightly on top of the stick as I know where I
want the ship to go and as I feel the student input, I am able to
relax. In the Schweizer 2-33, my feet simply must be on the rudder
pedals due to the small rear cockpit and my long legs. I address this
with my students by telling them to push until I get the message and
move.

During my check-out as a club instructor at a large US club, my
check-instructor was riding the controls in a Grob throughout our
flight. This gentlemen did not know me or my qualifications except
that I was to be a new instructor for the club, yet I was insulted in
his actions. At that point, I firmly decided that if I required a
demonstration of a manuever, I would tell the student and have him
join me on the controls. Otherwise, I would only use my voice and
allow the student to fly, using me as expensive life insurance.

At the large club, there was also a concern that an instructor with a
lower flight time to flight number ratio would result in short flights
for the new club members. This was seen as a detriment due to the
typical first come, first fly procedure in effect there. Club policy
promoted instuctors helping the student to stay aloft for the allowed
time. This increases student total time, but I maintain that it
affects his own confidence in his ability to remain aloft. We all
need to fall out of lift and find it again.

While there may be many other reasons for this type of instructional
technique, these are the most likely. As a student you are the boss,
even in a club. If your instructor is retarding your learning--get
another instructor--now.

Terry Claussen
CFIG Estrella Sailport, AZ

in article , Terry Claussen
at wrote on 2003/10/01 14:59:

This was after his pointed briefing on the ground about that we needed
to be clear about who was in control, and that whoever was would
announce / confirm it.

Not to condone this behavior..., may I offer a possible
rationale for it?

Frequently a CFIG may be flying for the first time with a pilot and
until an assessment of skill is completed, the instructor is
protecting his assets until a safe altitude/airspeed/position is
attained. My first few students in the glider suffered from my own
ham-hand until I became more confident in my own ability. Now, I
place my index finger lightly on top of the stick as I know where I
want the ship to go and as I feel the student input, I am able to
relax.

I am not a glider instructor, but having been an instructee in many
different types of aircraft, from gliders to 757s, and an Instructor in both
light civilian aircraft and in the USAF T-38, I believe scenarios where the
student and the instructor should be on the stick at the same time are rare.

Either the circumstances permit the student to control the aircraft or they
do not. The Instructor may certainly "guard" the stick (e.g., place a
protective ring around it with his hands) in order to prevent gross
over-control in circumstances such as aerobatic/formation flight when the
student is not yet proficient or the Instructor is unsure of the student's
level of proficiency.

The classic Instructor's admonition, "When I say 'I've got it', I mean I'VE
got it, and when I say, 'You've got it', I mean WE'VE got it", indicates
only that the student should stay completely off all controls when the
Instructor has taken control of the aircraft, and that the student can
expect intervention when necessary but should continue to fly the aircraft
to the best of his ability until commanded otherwise.

There are few things more annoying than feeling someone else's unbidden
control inputs. An instructor who "rides" the controls is not yet ready to
instruct.

If CFIGs out there feel that gliders present a special case, I invite your
further clarification.



Jack

Robert John wrote in message ...
Mike,
Chris said he is a 'Basic' instructor. FYI, a Basic
rating (UK) is not valid for P2 handling below 500
feet. This is for the safety of both parties as the
Basic Instructor will not have had the intensive low-level
recovery training that an Assistant or Full Category
instructor will have received.

Ok, that explains it. I'm in Canada

I think it's a bit odd to have a "height restriction / different
instructor ratings". IMHO you should be qualified to instruct /
recover from the student's errors *whatever* the altitude / p1/p2
situation.

Do you know if there is a similiar classification for *power*
instructors in the U.K. ?


The instructor should either be off (YOU
HAVE CONTROL) or on (I HAVE CONTROL) unless he has
clearly stated he is doing so and why.

My feelings exactly. Especially after a pointed briefing of "I have
control / You have control", then the instructor doesn't "follow the
rules" !

Mike

Mike,

I'm not so conversant with power training but I think
the 'Basic Instructor' concept is limited to gliders.
The rationale is that it permits an entry level to
instructing within which people who are competent pilots
but not necessarily experienced instructors can fly
P1 for 'Trial Lessons'. We do lots of these 'Introductory
lessons' with people who have probably not flown before
(and may never again!). For many clubs, these provide
a material part of their turnover

BTW, I flew in Canada a couple of weeks ago - Vancouver
Soaring Association - very hospitable!

Rob


At 23:06 01 October 2003, Mike Stramba wrote:
Robert John wrote in message news:...
Mike,
Chris said he is a 'Basic' instructor. FYI, a Basic
rating (UK) is not valid for P2 handling below 500
feet. This is for the safety of both parties as the
Basic Instructor will not have had the intensive low-level
recovery training that an Assistant or Full Category
instructor will have received.

Ok, that explains it. I'm in Canada

I think it's a bit odd to have a 'height restriction
/ different
instructor ratings'. IMHO you should be qualified
to instruct /
recover from the student's errors *whatever* the altitude
/ p1/p2
situation.

Do you know if there is a similiar classification for
*power*
instructors in the U.K. ?


The instructor should either be off (YOU
HAVE CONTROL) or on (I HAVE CONTROL) unless he has
clearly stated he is doing so and why.

My feelings exactly. Especially after a pointed briefing
of 'I have
control / You have control', then the instructor doesn't
'follow the
rules' !

Mike

Jack wrote
I believe scenarios where the
student and the instructor should be on the stick at the same time are rare.

Rare is not the same as non-existent.

Either the circumstances permit the student to control the aircraft or they
do not.

The problem is that we want the student to get to where they do as
quickly as possible. Sometimes this is best done by occasionally
'helping' the student, so that it doesn't become necessary for the
instructor to take full control.

The Instructor may certainly "guard" the stick (e.g., place a
protective ring around it with his hands) in order to prevent gross
over-control in circumstances such as aerobatic/formation flight when the
student is not yet proficient or the Instructor is unsure of the student's
level of proficiency.

Guarding the stick is a completely different matter. The nice thing
about a tandem trainer is this - the student doesn't know you're
guarding the stick because he can neither see you nor feel you on the
controls.

the student can
expect intervention when necessary but should continue to fly the aircraft
to the best of his ability until commanded otherwise.

There are few things more annoying than feeling someone else's unbidden
control inputs. An instructor who "rides" the controls is not yet ready to
instruct.

I think this is exactly right. If you need your hands/feet on the
controls to know what's going on, then you need more experience flying
before you try to teach someone else. That doesn't change the fact
that you sometimes have to help a student.

Usually the help is necessary on tow. Ab initio students may be a
different matter (I've never trained one) but it is my opinion that a
transition pilot should be flying on tow from his first lesson onward,
and that's how I teach. Practically speaking, that means I give him
the plane at about 500-600 ft AGL (the altitude from which a return to
the airport and normal landing into the wind can be accomplished
without drama if he really hoses it up) and he starts screwing up.

Nothing I do will change the fact that it takes time to learn to fly
on tow - stick time. If my hand is on the stick and my feet are on
the rudders, my student is not learning. At this point he is making
mistakes faster than I can talk, so unless he is doing something
systematically wrong, anything I say is useless - he just has to get
the feel of it. Demos are all well and good, but I have already
showed him how to fly on tow, and let him feel it (by following me on
the controls) by the time we've made it to 500 ft. Now he has to do
it, and the more time I give him on the controls, the quicker he will
learn.

Since he will not be able to control the sailplane on tow for more
than a few seconds at a time at first, I basically have two choices.
I can let him screw it up until I have to take control, then recenter
on tow and have him try again. Or I can slap the stick or tap a
rudder, knock him back into the game, and let him keep struggling.
The latter option gives him way more stick time on tow, and gives him
a fighting chance of having the tow thing figured by the second
flight.

The general case is this - when it is clear that the student
understands the basic concept, and we're just waiting for the hands
and feet to catch up with the brain, then a little help can be useful
if that's what it takes to let the student keep practicing safely.

I really can't imagine a situation where it would be appropriate for
the instructor to 'help' a student on the controls at altitude and not
on tow.

If CFIGs out there feel that gliders present a special case, I invite your
further clarification.

I certainly don't.

Michael