Canadians: Estimate monthly costs?

Hi there,

I'm hoping that someone who owns an aircraft in Canada (pref. Toronto area) can
give me some hints. I'm just trying to get a ballpark estimate of the costs
involved in airplane ownership. How much do you pay for insurance? Tie
down/hangar fees? What kind of financing (if any) were you able to get on
your airplane (I don't own a house so the plane itself would have to be
collateral)? Hell, I don't even know how much a gallon of gas costs. What
about licensing fees or Nav Canada fees? Annual inspections?

I guess, what it comes down to is: How much per month should I expect to
pay and how much per hour (assuming that I pay myself each hour to save
up for overhauls/repairs/whatnot) will it cost to operate for a single-engine
4-seater like a C-182 or such?

- awh

Drew Hamilton writes:

I guess, what it comes down to is: How much per month should I
expect to pay and how much per hour (assuming that I pay myself each
hour to save up for overhauls/repairs/whatnot) will it cost to
operate for a single-engine 4-seater like a C-182 or such?

There are some wild variables involved -- hangaring will add several
hundred dollars per month, for example, and if you buy a plane that
hasn't been maintained well or hasn't been flying enough, you could
have thousands more in maintenance costs every year.

Here in Ottawa, with my PA-28-161 (160hp Piper Warrior II), I'm paying
about CAD 2500.00/year for insurance, CAD 75.00/month for tiedown (at
CYOW; probably much cheaper at a country airport), CAD 30.00/month for
landing fees (possibly non-existant at a smaller airport), and
something like CAD 60-70.00 for the annual Nav Canada fee. I've paid
a few hundred getting my avionics checked and fixed up, and about CAD
1000.00 putting in a four-place intercom (a non-recurring expense),
but otherwise I haven't had any big surprises yet. Fuel runs about
CAD 30.00/hour, and I allow CAD 10.00/hour for engine overhaul reserve
and another CAD 5.00/hour for avionics and paint reserve.

My first annual will be in a couple of weeks, and I'll have a better
idea then of what my costs will be, but I'm guessing that CAD
10,000.00/year isn't too far off for a properly-maintained 172 or
Cherokee flown about 100 hours/year. Maintenance costs are lower in
Canada and fuel isn't much higher (I pay CAD 60/hour for basic
maintenance and 75/hour for avionics work, which comes to well under
USD 40.00 and 50.00 respectively) -- in other words, keeping a plane
costs about the same as keeping a cottage (but the plane flies, while
the cottage just has flies).


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

In The May issue of FLYING, the run down for a 182 was $179.03/hr based on
125 hr/yr. This includes everything. times CAN ~$1.40 dollar =$250.64/hr.
No, I do not own a airplane ****



By Tom Benenson



I was born in Canada does this count?

Pat Thronson

Babb MT

"Pat Thronson" writes:

In The May issue of FLYING, the run down for a 182 was $179.03/hr
based on 125 hr/yr. This includes everything. times CAN ~$1.40
dollar =$250.64/hr. No, I do not own a airplane ****

I think that the article assumed you were hangaring the plane, which
adds a lot to the fixed costs. A 182 is also slightly more expensive
per hour than a 172 or Cherokee because of higher fuel burn, bigger
engine reserve (for the higher overhaul cost), and additional
maintenance for the constant-speed prop. Since the 182 has a higher
hull value, it will also cost more to insure. Maintenance can also
cost more in the U.S.

I just checked, and for my 1979 PA-28-161 I have these fixed expenses,
in Canadian dollars:

Insurance: 2,650/year (USD 1,890)
Tie-down: 900/year (USD 640)
Landing fee: 360/year (USD 260)
Nav Canada: 65/year (USD 46)

I cannot do much about those, aside from moving to a smaller field
with no landing charges and cheaper tie-downs, but I like being based
at a big airport (CYOW) with two ILS approaches and good, inexpensive
maintenance, instrument, and avionics shops on the field. My
insurance rate (CAD 1M combined liability and CAD 70K hull) is based
on only 90 hours of flight time, a PPL only a couple of months old,
and no advanced ratings. By the time I renew next December, I will
have over 200 hours together with my night and instrument ratings, so
I'm hoping for a better rate.

On top of this comes fuel and oil, which are predictable, engine
reserve, which is an educated guess, and general maintenance, which is
anyone's guess. I've talked to a few local pilots with comparable
planes, and most pay about CAD 1500-3000 locally for a good,
non-owner-assisted annual and associated repairs and touch-ups
(technically not part of the annual inspection).

Overall, looking at my expenses so far in my first year and projecting
them forward to December -- assuming CAD 3000.00 for my first annual
next month), that I'll end up with a total of 150 hours flying (I'm
close to 100 already) -- I'm looking at about CAD 100/hour (USD
72/hour) to fly my Warrior II this year. I wouldn't expect the cost
to be much different for a 172. Next year, costs may be lower, since
(I hope) if insurance is left and I don't find many new squawks beyond
the ones I've already fixed.

By comparison, renting a 172P wet would have cost me CAD 120/hour
including taxes and surcharges, plus CAD 250/day when the plane was
sitting at another airport while I was away on a cross-country trip.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

I'm hoping that someone who owns an aircraft in Canada (pref. Toronto
area) can
give me some hints.

I keep my 172 at Kelowna BC.

Prices are Canadian.
Insurance is $1600 per year.
Tiedown is $600 per year.
Nav Canada is $65 per year.
Annual - about 12 hours labour plus anything they find that needs fixing.
100LL $1.15 litre in Kelowna. As low as 80c in lower mainland.
Oil change - $140.00
Expect at least one simple repair on Avoionics - $400.00
$70 per hour labour for any other work.

A hangar here is $42,000 plus $200 per month plus insurance & utilities -
that's why I have a tiedown.

As a VERY rough rule of thumb, in a 172, flying 60 - 75 hours a year
will be about the same cost as renting. Over that and you are saving
money. The big bonus is that the aircraft is always available, you know
its condition, you can leave your stuff in it, you can stay out all
weekend without paying a per day cost . . . there are a pot of pluses.

I looked at a couple of 182's and I estimate 182 costs to be about 30%
higher than a 172.

--
Tony Roberts (tonyroberts@ remove shaw.ca)
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172 C-GICE

The short answer (and, yes, I am in Toronto) is 'damned expensive'. A
tie-down in Toronto (Buttonville) is about $175/mo...hangar (and there's a
waiting list) $350/mo.

Insurance is about will run between 2.5 and 3% of the aircraft's "hull
value" or worth annually and that's if you can get it. They want
experience...it counts in evaluating risk, especially if you were looking at
a retractable or multi and you don't have any time on them.

Yes, you can get financing at good rates from the chartered banks with the
airplane and a personal guarantee acting as the collateral if you have a
good credit rating and with the insurance showing the bank as primary loss
payee.

Gas is not sold by the gallon...it's by the liter and fluctuates as a result
of the same thievery the oil companies use to screw you on the roads. Right
now a liter of 100LL (typical in light GA aircraft) is around $1.25 liter
right now. GA aircraft will burn about 40-60 liters per hour of operation.

Licensing fees and NAV Canada fees are nickels and dimes, not worth
discussing and the least of your worries. A proper annual will run you $1500
to $1800 if there are no repairs...and there are ALWAYS repairs. Count on
$4000 if you have a properly maintained, good running airplane.

The answer to how much per hour to allocate to a C-182 is dependent entirely
on the condition of the 182, who does the maintenance, but mostly about how
many hours you fly annually. Average Canadian 'weekend warriors' fly 42
hours per year. Reasonably active trippers (guys like me who fly places and
not circles around Lake Simcoe) fly 100-150 hours per year. My cost is
hundreds per hour. Flying is not for the feint of heart and ownership is not
for the feint of wallet as it cannot be justified financially under any
circumstances. It's about doing what you love.

Peter Shurman
Bonanza F-33A C/GRDT
Toronto, ON


"Drew Hamilton" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

I'm hoping that someone who owns an aircraft in Canada (pref. Toronto
area) can
give me some hints. I'm just trying to get a ballpark estimate of the
costs
involved in airplane ownership. How much do you pay for insurance? Tie
down/hangar fees? What kind of financing (if any) were you able to get on
your airplane (I don't own a house so the plane itself would have to be
collateral)? Hell, I don't even know how much a gallon of gas costs.
What
about licensing fees or Nav Canada fees? Annual inspections?

I guess, what it comes down to is: How much per month should I expect to
pay and how much per hour (assuming that I pay myself each hour to save
up for overhauls/repairs/whatnot) will it cost to operate for a
single-engine
4-seater like a C-182 or such?

- awh

"Peter Shurman" writes:

GA aircraft will burn about 40-60 liters per hour of operation.

That depends on the plane, the pilot's leaning technique, and the
cruise power setting. At 75% cruise, the book number for my 160 hp
Warrior II is 8.5 gph, or 32 lph. A lot of people run at lower power
settings -- at 65%, my Warrior is supposed to burn 7.5 gph/28 lph, and
at 55%, it is supposed to burn 6.6 gph/25 lph. (My actual fuel burn
is a little lower in every case, but it wouldn't be safe to count on
that.)

If you're not flying cross-country but doing circuits, approaches, or
upper air work, the actual burn will even lower. After a typical IFR
lesson (2 hours flight time, maybe 1.5 air time), I had to put in
about 30 liters (7.9 gallons) to top up my tanks.

A 172 with (virtually) the same O-320 engine should have about the
same fuel burn. I imagine that 40-60 lph would be for a bigger plane
like an Arrow or a 182, or for someone flying a 172 or Cherokee with
the mixture very rich.

Licensing fees and NAV Canada fees are nickels and dimes, not worth
discussing and the least of your worries. A proper annual will run
you $1500 to $1800 if there are no repairs...and there are ALWAYS
repairs. Count on $4000 if you have a properly maintained, good
running airplane.

Or fly out of Toronto to somewhere a little less expensive. I pay CAD
60/hour (USD 43/hour) for maintenance work here in Ottawa, and I've
heard from people out in Alberta who think even that's too high.
There are also lots of shops (maintenance, avionics, paint, etc.) in
small cities surrounding Toronto, like Brantford and Peterborough --
it would be easy to fly out there and then get a lift home if it meant
saving $1000 or so.

Of course, you have to balance that against the value of your
relationship with your AME, if you have one on the field. I'm
fortunate that my local maintenance shop (about 20 meters from my
tie-down) is both inexpensive and good, so I don't have to make that
choice.

The answer to how much per hour to allocate to a C-182 is dependent
entirely on the condition of the 182, who does the maintenance, but
mostly about how many hours you fly annually. Average Canadian
'weekend warriors' fly 42 hours per year.

At that point, someone would definitely want a couple of partners just
for the healt of the plane. From everything I've heard, the engine
needs to fly about two hours/week minimum.

Reasonably active trippers (guys like me who fly places and not
circles around Lake Simcoe) fly 100-150 hours per year. My cost is
hundreds per hour. Flying is not for the feint of heart and
ownership is not for the feint of wallet as it cannot be justified
financially under any circumstances. It's about doing what you love.

Peter Shurman
Bonanza F-33A C/GRDT

That was interesting information.

Personally, I'm just coming up on my first annual, 8 months after
buying my Warrior II, so my nasty surprises may still be ahead of me,
but it is worth noting that your numbers are very aircraft-dependent:
if my annual isn't over CAD 3,000, I project that my total costs,
including engine reserve, will come up to around CAD 100/hour by the
end of the year for 150 hours, and that includes the pre-purchase
inspection, a new four-place intercom, and a lot of small
post-purchase snags -- next year, I'm hoping for cheaper insurance and
fewer snags.

I envy you your Bonanza very much, and will envy you even more
tomorrow when I'm flying my family of four (+ dog) crammed into a
PA-28 against a 23 knot headwind all the way Ottawa to Sault
Ste. Marie (can you say "400 fpm climb"?). On the other hand, I don't
envy you and other Bo owners when it comes time to write cheques.
When I have a problem with avionics or the plane itself, I'm usually
clear and flying again for, say, CAD 80.00-150.00, just because my
plane and its avionics are so simple (for example, I just paid one
hour's labour to Canadian Airmotive to have a new volume pot put on
the nav side of my KX-170B -- the pot itself was free, salvaged from
another radio). If I needed the performance for something like a
weekly commute to a customer in the U.S. (as is the case with one Bo
owner on our field), then the cost for better performance would be
justified, of course.

Bigger planes like yours usually also include much better avionics --
I wouldn't be surprised to see some 'sferics, an engine monitor, and a
Garmin 430 or 530 on your panel, at least -- and those all cost more
to maintain. If you *could* rent a Bo anywhere, in the condition
yours is (probably) in, I suspect it would also run a few hundred an
hour.

If I could afford a plane like yours, and I were experienced enough to
fly it safely, then I'd gladly have it. It's just worth remembering
that people like me can own and fly quite respectable, capable
airplanes like the 172, Cherokee, or Musketeer less than half your
hourly cost.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

No argument with any of your points....but remember, I was reacting to the
original author's suggestion of a C-182 as his benchmark and I believe my
fuel burn and cost numbers would stand up.

I have a beautiful airplane, it's true, but it was preceded by other
beautiful airplanes...previously a Turbo Lance and before that, my initial
investment, also a PA-28 but it was a '69 Arrow. Interestingly, that one
cost more to maintain than the Bonanza. Reason? It was an old airplane and,
in the aging GA fleet, what you don't spend buying the big new toy is
dropped on parts and maintenance keeping the old one alive. Great first
airplane though and I don't regret it. I bet you love that Warrior (as you
should) even in a heavy headwind!

Two factual comments on your points....Leggat Aviation at YKZ is also
$60/hour; the gentleman, however, could save money flying out of a smaller
field (as could I). But apparently, we both live here! Happy flying and
thanks for the back-and-forth.

Peter



"David Megginson" wrote in message
...
"Peter Shurman" writes:

GA aircraft will burn about 40-60 liters per hour of operation.

That depends on the plane, the pilot's leaning technique, and the
cruise power setting. At 75% cruise, the book number for my 160 hp
Warrior II is 8.5 gph, or 32 lph. A lot of people run at lower power
settings -- at 65%, my Warrior is supposed to burn 7.5 gph/28 lph, and
at 55%, it is supposed to burn 6.6 gph/25 lph. (My actual fuel burn
is a little lower in every case, but it wouldn't be safe to count on
that.)

If you're not flying cross-country but doing circuits, approaches, or
upper air work, the actual burn will even lower. After a typical IFR
lesson (2 hours flight time, maybe 1.5 air time), I had to put in
about 30 liters (7.9 gallons) to top up my tanks.

A 172 with (virtually) the same O-320 engine should have about the
same fuel burn. I imagine that 40-60 lph would be for a bigger plane
like an Arrow or a 182, or for someone flying a 172 or Cherokee with
the mixture very rich.

Licensing fees and NAV Canada fees are nickels and dimes, not worth
discussing and the least of your worries. A proper annual will run
you $1500 to $1800 if there are no repairs...and there are ALWAYS
repairs. Count on $4000 if you have a properly maintained, good
running airplane.

Or fly out of Toronto to somewhere a little less expensive. I pay CAD
60/hour (USD 43/hour) for maintenance work here in Ottawa, and I've
heard from people out in Alberta who think even that's too high.
There are also lots of shops (maintenance, avionics, paint, etc.) in
small cities surrounding Toronto, like Brantford and Peterborough --
it would be easy to fly out there and then get a lift home if it meant
saving $1000 or so.

Of course, you have to balance that against the value of your
relationship with your AME, if you have one on the field. I'm
fortunate that my local maintenance shop (about 20 meters from my
tie-down) is both inexpensive and good, so I don't have to make that
choice.

The answer to how much per hour to allocate to a C-182 is dependent
entirely on the condition of the 182, who does the maintenance, but
mostly about how many hours you fly annually. Average Canadian
'weekend warriors' fly 42 hours per year.

At that point, someone would definitely want a couple of partners just
for the healt of the plane. From everything I've heard, the engine
needs to fly about two hours/week minimum.

Reasonably active trippers (guys like me who fly places and not
circles around Lake Simcoe) fly 100-150 hours per year. My cost is
hundreds per hour. Flying is not for the feint of heart and
ownership is not for the feint of wallet as it cannot be justified
financially under any circumstances. It's about doing what you love.

Peter Shurman
Bonanza F-33A C/GRDT

That was interesting information.

Personally, I'm just coming up on my first annual, 8 months after
buying my Warrior II, so my nasty surprises may still be ahead of me,
but it is worth noting that your numbers are very aircraft-dependent:
if my annual isn't over CAD 3,000, I project that my total costs,
including engine reserve, will come up to around CAD 100/hour by the
end of the year for 150 hours, and that includes the pre-purchase
inspection, a new four-place intercom, and a lot of small
post-purchase snags -- next year, I'm hoping for cheaper insurance and
fewer snags.

I envy you your Bonanza very much, and will envy you even more
tomorrow when I'm flying my family of four (+ dog) crammed into a
PA-28 against a 23 knot headwind all the way Ottawa to Sault
Ste. Marie (can you say "400 fpm climb"?). On the other hand, I don't
envy you and other Bo owners when it comes time to write cheques.
When I have a problem with avionics or the plane itself, I'm usually
clear and flying again for, say, CAD 80.00-150.00, just because my
plane and its avionics are so simple (for example, I just paid one
hour's labour to Canadian Airmotive to have a new volume pot put on
the nav side of my KX-170B -- the pot itself was free, salvaged from
another radio). If I needed the performance for something like a
weekly commute to a customer in the U.S. (as is the case with one Bo
owner on our field), then the cost for better performance would be
justified, of course.

Bigger planes like yours usually also include much better avionics --
I wouldn't be surprised to see some 'sferics, an engine monitor, and a
Garmin 430 or 530 on your panel, at least -- and those all cost more
to maintain. If you *could* rent a Bo anywhere, in the condition
yours is (probably) in, I suspect it would also run a few hundred an
hour.

If I could afford a plane like yours, and I were experienced enough to
fly it safely, then I'd gladly have it. It's just worth remembering
that people like me can own and fly quite respectable, capable
airplanes like the 172, Cherokee, or Musketeer less than half your
hourly cost.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

"Peter Shurman" writes:

No argument with any of your points....but remember, I was reacting
to the original author's suggestion of a C-182 as his benchmark and
I believe my fuel burn and cost numbers would stand up.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

I have a beautiful airplane, it's true, but it was preceded by other
beautiful airplanes...previously a Turbo Lance and before that, my
initial investment, also a PA-28 but it was a '69
Arrow. Interestingly, that one cost more to maintain than the
Bonanza. Reason? It was an old airplane and, in the aging GA fleet,
what you don't spend buying the big new toy is dropped on parts and
maintenance keeping the old one alive. Great first airplane though
and I don't regret it. I bet you love that Warrior (as you should)
even in a heavy headwind!

I certainly do. Just out of curiosity, what problems did show up in
your Arrow? Were they related to the complex systems (gear and prop),
or more general airframe and mechanical problems?

Two factual comments on your points....Leggat Aviation at YKZ is also
$60/hour; the gentleman, however, could save money flying out of a smaller
field (as could I). But apparently, we both live here! Happy flying and
thanks for the back-and-forth.

That is good news about Leggat -- I know that they have an outstanding
reputation, and it's good to know that they're inexpensive (compared
to U.S. prices) as well.

I agree on the value of a nearby airport. I pay CAD 65/month to tie
down on the field at CYOW, and another CAD 30/month to the airport
authority for landing fees. I could save a bit of change by keeping
my plane way out at Carp, Arnprior, or Smith's Falls, or even across
town at Rockcliffe, but I appreciate the convenience of CYOW (an easy
12 km bike ride from my house), and like flying from a big airport
with customs and two ILS approaches. It's also fun watching a couple
of 767s holding short waiting for me to land.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

Responses interspersed.....

I certainly do. Just out of curiosity, what problems did show up in
your Arrow? Were they related to the complex systems (gear and prop),
or more general airframe and mechanical problems?

Problems were gear and engine related, not mechanical per se. Gear was slow,
decided not to drop one day on final...I did a go-around and cycled it --
finally got 3 greens. Replaced hydraulic pump. Engine ran hot, replaced 2
cracked cylinders in 2 years despite running ROP and 65% max...burned too
much oil so something was bound to happen. Sold it with cylinder work done
based on buyer's pre-purchase.

Two factual comments on your points....Leggat Aviation at YKZ is also
$60/hour; the gentleman, however, could save money flying out of a
smaller
field (as could I). But apparently, we both live here! Happy flying and
thanks for the back-and-forth.

That is good news about Leggat -- I know that they have an outstanding
reputation, and it's good to know that they're inexpensive (compared
to U.S. prices) as well.

I agree on the value of a nearby airport. I pay CAD 65/month to tie
down on the field at CYOW, and another CAD 30/month to the airport
authority for landing fees. I could save a bit of change by keeping
my plane way out at Carp, Arnprior, or Smith's Falls, or even across
town at Rockcliffe, but I appreciate the convenience of CYOW (an easy
12 km bike ride from my house), and like flying from a big airport
with customs and two ILS approaches. It's also fun watching a couple
of 767s holding short waiting for me to land.

Works for me. City Centre (Island) is $600/mo...YKZ just completed a heated
hangar...$900/mo. You can go crazy but best not to do so. Look me up at YKZ.
Nice chatting. /ps