Piper Commanche vs Money 201

"Jeff" wrote:
The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I
seemed to lose some airspeed,...

Which you should. LOP is for fuel efficiency and cool CHT's; it does not
produce peak power.

... so I lean to 12 gph which is just a
tiny bit ROP, that seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

That's close to peak power.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP, thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

Jeff,

I don't have GAMIJECTORS but have read quite a bit about them. So let me
say the following but, by all means, check with Braley or someone you
respect as knowledgeable.

By running LOP you are running more efficiently -- by that I mean you
produce more HP per unit of fuel consumed. However, as you have noted,
leaning the mixture that far will reduce the total power produced, and you
will certainly see a drop in airspeed.

If by "running a tiny bit ROP" you mean in the range of 25-50° ROP EGT,
that is a baaad place to run an engine. CHT's are higher, and cylinder
pressures are also higher than at other settings. IF you are going to run
ROP, you should try to run around 100-125° ROP.

An alternate method of maintaining the increased BSFC, lower temperatures,
and lower cylinder pressures you obtain by running LOP EGT, if possible
with your setup, would be to, for example, set your power to 65%; lean to
25-50° LOP EGT; and then, instead of using the mixture control to get your
12 gph, use your throttle! That regains the power you lost while
maintaining the benefits of running LOP! You might find you need less than
12 gph to regain your lost airspeed. (GAMI should have a multiplier for
the fuel flow in your engine which you can use to determine HP from fuel
flow).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but the guy
basically says that you can go lean of peak and not lose power. He even
demostrates it in his bonanza.
Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your CHT's,
running rich will keep your temps down. But gami says that using their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem. I like ROP for the
power and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

Jeff
http://www.turboarrow3.com


Dan Luke wrote:

"Jeff" wrote:
The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I
seemed to lose some airspeed,...

Which you should. LOP is for fuel efficiency and cool CHT's; it does not
produce peak power.

... so I lean to 12 gph which is just a
tiny bit ROP, that seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

That's close to peak power.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

I have played with leaning, did it as gami suggested, by running LOP I am down to
about 8-9 GPH which seems really low. I have an insight engine monitor which I use
when leaning. Leaning that much makes me nervous, I always feel like I will kill
the engine. the 12 gph is probably right about 50 degrees ROP, 13 will make it
about 100 degree's ROP.
I am flying sunday morning to cedar city UT to practice some instrument approaches
with my new garmin 430 so will take the time to really mess with the leaning.

But I thought that by going lean, then increasing MP to get back lost power would
put more stress on the engine thus making it run at a higher output.
I have a turbo, so I only fly at 65% power to keep the temps down since I dont have
an intercooler. All the other t-arrow owners I know said by flying at 75% power
they have cracked alot of cylinders. so the way I have been doing it was after
getting to cruise altitude, I would lean to about 12 gph which is consistant with
65% power.
But hell, I may have been doing it all wrong knowing me

BTW I think your mooney or the 201 has the same engine I have, I have to look and
see for sure. Its the TSIO-360-FB, 6 cylinder, fuel injected and rated at 215 HP in
some airplanes.

Jeff
http://www.turboarrow3.com


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP, thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

Jeff,

I don't have GAMIJECTORS but have read quite a bit about them. So let me
say the following but, by all means, check with Braley or someone you
respect as knowledgeable.

By running LOP you are running more efficiently -- by that I mean you
produce more HP per unit of fuel consumed. However, as you have noted,
leaning the mixture that far will reduce the total power produced, and you
will certainly see a drop in airspeed.

If by "running a tiny bit ROP" you mean in the range of 25-50° ROP EGT,
that is a baaad place to run an engine. CHT's are higher, and cylinder
pressures are also higher than at other settings. IF you are going to run
ROP, you should try to run around 100-125° ROP.

An alternate method of maintaining the increased BSFC, lower temperatures,
and lower cylinder pressures you obtain by running LOP EGT, if possible
with your setup, would be to, for example, set your power to 65%; lean to
25-50° LOP EGT; and then, instead of using the mixture control to get your
12 gph, use your throttle! That regains the power you lost while
maintaining the benefits of running LOP! You might find you need less than
12 gph to regain your lost airspeed. (GAMI should have a multiplier for
the fuel flow in your engine which you can use to determine HP from fuel
flow).

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:44:32 -0800, Jeff wrote:

I have played with leaning, did it as gami suggested, by running LOP I am down to
about 8-9 GPH which seems really low. I have an insight engine monitor which I use
when leaning. Leaning that much makes me nervous, I always feel like I will kill
the engine.

If your GAMI's are perfectly matched, you should kill the engine before
noting any roughness! But I don't think I would be nervous at those
settings. Besides, you could always enrichen and restart the engine.

I don't have a fuel flow meter, nor do I have GAMI's, but when I want to
fly economically, I will generally lean until all cylinders have shown a
one bar drop (from peak EGT) on my Insight GEM. This equates to 25-50°
LOP. At that setting, I'm generally burning 7-7.5 gph on my four cylinder
engine. That number is based on measuring how much fuel it takes to fill
the tank per unit time, not on a fuel flow meter.

If I had a fuel flow meter, I would probably be more aggressive about
adding back power.


the 12 gph is probably right about 50 degrees ROP, 13 will make it
about 100 degree's ROP.

At least for a Lycoming IO360, that's about the worst place to run it so
far as cylinder pressures and CHT's are concerned.

I am flying sunday morning to cedar city UT to practice some instrument approaches
with my new garmin 430 so will take the time to really mess with the leaning.

But I thought that by going lean, then increasing MP to get back lost power would
put more stress on the engine thus making it run at a higher output.

I believe your understanding is incorrect. My understanding is that one of
the advantages of running LOP is that you are decreasing the *rate* of burn
of the fuel. This, in turn, reduces *peak* cylinder pressure which is felt
to be an important factor in cylinder damage. By increasing the MP to get
back lost power , you must, of course, put "more stress on the engine" but
it is still *less* stress than you would get by running the same power ROP
by increasing the fuel flow using your mixture control.

Braley, the head of GAMI, reports that he routinely runs his TN'd Bonanza
at 85% power LOP.


I have a turbo, so I only fly at 65% power to keep the temps down since I dont have
an intercooler. All the other t-arrow owners I know said by flying at 75% power
they have cracked alot of cylinders. so the way I have been doing it was after
getting to cruise altitude, I would lean to about 12 gph which is consistant with
65% power.
But hell, I may have been doing it all wrong knowing me

BTW I think your mooney or the 201 has the same engine I have, I have to look and
see for sure. Its the TSIO-360-FB, 6 cylinder, fuel injected and rated at 215 HP in
some airplanes.


No, my Mooney has a Lycoming IO360A1A -- a four cylinder, fuel injected
engine. It is rated at 200hp.

GAMI has an engine management course that others have found valuable. In
addition, John Deakin has some articles on AVWEB (his column is called
Pelican Perch) which speak directly to the point you are wrestling with.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Whoa! Seems like you get the picture, Ron!

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:01:20 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP, thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

Jeff,

I don't have GAMIJECTORS but have read quite a bit about them. So let me
say the following but, by all means, check with Braley or someone you
respect as knowledgeable.

By running LOP you are running more efficiently -- by that I mean you
produce more HP per unit of fuel consumed. However, as you have noted,
leaning the mixture that far will reduce the total power produced, and you
will certainly see a drop in airspeed.

If by "running a tiny bit ROP" you mean in the range of 25-50° ROP EGT,
that is a baaad place to run an engine. CHT's are higher, and cylinder
pressures are also higher than at other settings. IF you are going to run
ROP, you should try to run around 100-125° ROP.

An alternate method of maintaining the increased BSFC, lower temperatures,
and lower cylinder pressures you obtain by running LOP EGT, if possible
with your setup, would be to, for example, set your power to 65%; lean to
25-50° LOP EGT; and then, instead of using the mixture control to get your
12 gph, use your throttle! That regains the power you lost while
maintaining the benefits of running LOP! You might find you need less than
12 gph to regain your lost airspeed. (GAMI should have a multiplier for
the fuel flow in your engine which you can use to determine HP from fuel
flow).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Jeff" wrote:
the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but
the guy basically says that you can go lean of peak and not
lose power. He even demostrates it in his bonanza.

You are having problems understanding because you are over-generalizing.
What the guy says is true for partricular power settings and CHTs. The
value of Gamis is that they allow you to run at a lower fuel flow with
lower CHTs while making the same power that you would at ~100 deg ROP.
If you insist on running at a peak power mixture setting, Gamis are of
little value to you.

Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your
CHT's, running rich will keep your temps down.

You have been told a half truth, at best.

But gami says that using their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem.

They are correct, but you must not over-simplify what they are saying.
You must have proper engine instrumentation and follow their operational
techniques. If you do, you may run LOP and have cooler cylinders.

I like ROP for the
power...

Then why did you buy the Gamis?

...and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

The setting you use, peak power, is the worst of all for cylinder stress
and produces the very highest CHTs.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Full throttle, use the mixture to control MP and the prop to control
speed. If the engine doesn't have any induction leaks, LOP is a
possibility without any problems, BUT you should know where you're
running. You're looking for a good balance. Lycomings generally have
good induction systems, the GAMI's help the big bore Continentals.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:44:32 -0800, Jeff wrote:

I have played with leaning, did it as gami suggested, by running LOP I am down to
about 8-9 GPH which seems really low. I have an insight engine monitor which I use
when leaning. Leaning that much makes me nervous, I always feel like I will kill
the engine. the 12 gph is probably right about 50 degrees ROP, 13 will make it
about 100 degree's ROP.
I am flying sunday morning to cedar city UT to practice some instrument approaches
with my new garmin 430 so will take the time to really mess with the leaning.

But I thought that by going lean, then increasing MP to get back lost power would
put more stress on the engine thus making it run at a higher output.
I have a turbo, so I only fly at 65% power to keep the temps down since I dont have
an intercooler. All the other t-arrow owners I know said by flying at 75% power
they have cracked alot of cylinders. so the way I have been doing it was after
getting to cruise altitude, I would lean to about 12 gph which is consistant with
65% power.
But hell, I may have been doing it all wrong knowing me

BTW I think your mooney or the 201 has the same engine I have, I have to look and
see for sure. Its the TSIO-360-FB, 6 cylinder, fuel injected and rated at 215 HP in
some airplanes.

Jeff
http://www.turboarrow3.com


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP, thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

Jeff,

I don't have GAMIJECTORS but have read quite a bit about them. So let me
say the following but, by all means, check with Braley or someone you
respect as knowledgeable.

By running LOP you are running more efficiently -- by that I mean you
produce more HP per unit of fuel consumed. However, as you have noted,
leaning the mixture that far will reduce the total power produced, and you
will certainly see a drop in airspeed.

If by "running a tiny bit ROP" you mean in the range of 25-50° ROP EGT,
that is a baaad place to run an engine. CHT's are higher, and cylinder
pressures are also higher than at other settings. IF you are going to run
ROP, you should try to run around 100-125° ROP.

An alternate method of maintaining the increased BSFC, lower temperatures,
and lower cylinder pressures you obtain by running LOP EGT, if possible
with your setup, would be to, for example, set your power to 65%; lean to
25-50° LOP EGT; and then, instead of using the mixture control to get your
12 gph, use your throttle! That regains the power you lost while
maintaining the benefits of running LOP! You might find you need less than
12 gph to regain your lost airspeed. (GAMI should have a multiplier for
the fuel flow in your engine which you can use to determine HP from fuel
flow).

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Which kind to you think?

I've yet to see the majority of planes get the book numbers, so I'd
say that's a bit aggressive.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 19:04:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

LOL...Stu you kill me.
what plane do you own..just out of curiousty...
you know there ways to see the book performance on any airplane, like the f33
is here
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/i...plane116.shtml
its not that fast of an airplane.




That's the spirit! You'll go farther and faster more comfortably on
less fuel, and won't have to worry about stretching the numbers when
bragging to your friends. Good man!

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I have GamiJectors, wing root fairings, gap seals installed already.
a week ago I had new avionics installed. garmin 430, audio panel, garmin
x-ponder and some other stuff. Wanted the MX20 but that will have to wait
another 6 months.

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I
seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP,
thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

You should be leaning to 50 LOP. Your CHT's will be lower and you fuel flow
will be lower as well...AIA, easier on the engine.

Read John Deakins series on leaning and engine operations on AvWeb...you'll
be quite surprised. http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html