Crosswind landing control..

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:52:18 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Roger wrote:
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)

Roger, In what general area are you based?

Midland Michigan's Barstow Airport (3BS) which is about 100 miles NNW
of Detroit. We're 11.3 on the 337 radial of MBS which is just north
of Saginaw.



There's a polished Debonair / Bo at MGJ (Orange County, NY), that's got
to be the runner-up to yours.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:39:58 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Roger wrote:

In most Beech singles that rudder has more authority than the nose
gear unless going really slow.

As a pilot who learned to taxi without brakes on Pipers and Cessnas, I
almost ran the first Beech single I taxied right into the weeds.

You shouldn't need to use the brakes on a Bo either, but the nose gear
has a couple of "quirks" that make it difficult to taxi in a straight
line. The strut is canted forward and to the left. (pilot's side).
This gives the nose gear a negative caster as well as being tilted
slightly. The results are the need to constantly "dance" on the
rudder pedals. Right rudder to get the nose gear straight and once it
centers it will keep right on going to the right. Left rudder to
center and of course it'll just keep right on going to the left. It
is not an airplane you can taxi with your feet flat on the floor.
Leave it alone and it'll go any direction except straight. You also
learn to be "quick" when taking your feet off the pedals to move them
up high enough for your toes to be able to touch the brakes as the
thing is going to want to change directions.

However, it is good exercise for you legs.:-))


A classic case of needing to operate the plane you're in, not the others
you've flown in the past. All airplanes have quirks and idiosyncrasies.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 07:44:52 -0700, Newps wrote:



Roger wrote:



We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
for charter once in a while.



Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.

Bonanza flaps are OK. They're no Cessna flaps though.

Might depend on the model. Some Bonanzas and Debonairs are rated for
shorter landings than a 172. That's saying quite a bit when you are
talking about 3000# and up compaired to the weight of a 172.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Wheel barrowing will cause loss of directional control and
the accident will damage the airplane.

Many Cessna airplane are used for student instruction, as
are Piper and Beech, all are often landed on the nose wheel
by student pilots (and other too) and damage is not
uncommon.

Transport category airplanes are often designed with a
negative angle of attack when the nose wheel is on the
ground and they also have ground spoilers. Some GA light
twins, such as the Duke, have a negative lift with the nose
on the ground, but most light aircraft have enough tail area
to lift a major portion of the weight from the main wheels
with full down elevator.

Land, hold the nose off and then reduce back pressure and
lower the nose wheel into contact with the ground. Some
airplanes, such as the Piper singles may need to have the
nose wheel steering straightened before the wheel is allowed
to touch down. Some airplanes disconnect nose wheel
steering until the wheel has weight applied.
Once the nose wheel is firmly on the ground, apply brakes
and smoothly apply aft pressure again until the control is
fully aft.


Be sure to use the ailerons, elevator and brakes to control
the airplane. Some differential power on a twin can be
used, but on a slick runway, be careful. If you have
reverse thrust, be extra careful about directional control.



"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| BT wrote:
|
| I would not apply forward pressure to the stick. I would
apply heavier than
| normal braking to get more weight on the wheels, and
apply back pressure at
| the same time so the decelleration does not throw more
weight onto the nose
| tire/strut. Heavier than normal braking tends to flat
spot tires if the
| weight is not fully on the mains.
|
| Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a
pilot forces the
| airplane to land before it is ready.
| Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage
to the lower fire
| wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen
through the seperation.
|
| I don't think wheelbarrowing will damage the firewheel.
It takes a
| landing on the nosewheel to do that. This isn't quite the
same as
| wheelbarrowing.
|
|
| Matt

OK.................I'll bite!

I'm doubting that.....

Karl
"Curator" N185KG




Might depend on the model. Some Bonanzas and Debonairs are rated for
shorter landings than a 172. That's saying quite a bit when you are
talking about 3000# and up compaired to the weight of a 172.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
newseWdnYlvE6ilLOnYnZ2dnUVZ_hydnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.


If the elevator couldn't generate an _upward_ force, then you couldn't
pick up the tail on an taildragger, right? Let me assure you, you can pick
up the tail on a taildragger.


I agree 100% that the elevator can generate an upward force and pushing the
stick forward in a tricycle plane to put weight on the nose is NOT a good
idea in general. I would think it would be very easy to over do it.

Danny Dot

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On 3 Dec 2006 21:52:57 -0800, Dan wrote:
My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.

If it can't produce upward force, then the rear of the plane could be
made no lighter than when it is standing still, therefore it could
transfer no _additional_ weight to the nosewheel no matter what the
control inputs. Where is this logic flawed (seriously, I want to
understand if this is wrong...)

Airplanes are normally trimmed (and loaded within limits) so the
horizontal stabilizer provides a relatively small downward force.
This gives positive pitch stability without a major increase in
drag.

If your model of how the elevator works was valid, it would be
impossible for an aircraft to fly inverted since even full down
elevator wouldn't be enough to counteract the nose-down pitch
moment.

You also have to consider that an aircraft on the ground would
pitch around an axis passing through the main landing gear,
not through the wing's center of lift.


ljd

Matt Whiting wrote:
Dan wrote:
All,

When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
seems to have helped my control on rollout.

Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

--Dan


I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the roll-out. You
really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid steering.
Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive nose down
elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but as you slow
down the ability to do this obviously decreases.

What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering? Are you not
able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you rolling in aileron
into the wind as you slow down such that you have full aileron into the
crosswind as you get to taxi speed?

I happened to bump into this:-
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_507740.pdf

It discusses forward pressure immideately after landing says:-

Boeing 757-2T7, G-MONC
Nature of Damage: Structural damage to forward
fuselage in area of nose landing gear
.....
Having developed an incorrect landing technique, it is possible
that it was simply a matter of time
before the timing in the application of full nose-down
elevator caused an incident
.....
Over the ensuing 1.125 seconds, the elevator position changed
from 15.6degrees nose up at touchdown to
full nose down (20degrees) and the pitch attitude
began to reduce rapidly. The aircraft became light on the
main landing gear oleos but not enough to register
a change of state of the air / ground logic. The
right reverser indicated in transit just before the
(almost simultaneous) main landing gear recompression
and nose gear ground contact. A normal acceleration
of +1.6g was recorded during the
re-compression of the main landing gear. The rate of
derotation at nose gear oleo compression was
calculated to be 10degrees/second. This figure was
confirmed by the aircraft manufacturer who also stated
the design limit value to be 7°/second.

Boeing airliners are designed to have the nose wheel firmly
on the ground, some even have a brake. But no airplane is
designed to have the nose forced/slammed down except maybe a
carrier based fighter.

But back to the GA aircraft and effective nose wheel
steering... steering works with the weight on the main
landing gear and the nose wheel applies force to move the
nose. If you apply forward elevator you'll be loading the
nose wheel and shifting the pivot point [fulcrum] to the
nose wheel, this will cause the airplane to weathervane even
more and result in loss of directional control.



wrote in message
oups.com...

Matt Whiting wrote:
Dan wrote:
All,

When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and
the nosewheel
have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it
be proper
procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better
steering from
the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems
ineffective, and this
seems to have helped my control on rollout.

Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but
is that more of
a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what
circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

--Dan


I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the
roll-out. You
really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid
steering.
Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive
nose down
elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but
as you slow
down the ability to do this obviously decreases.

What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering?
Are you not
able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you
rolling in aileron
into the wind as you slow down such that you have full
aileron into the
crosswind as you get to taxi speed?

I happened to bump into this:-
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_507740.pdf

It discusses forward pressure immideately after landing
says:-

Boeing 757-2T7, G-MONC
Nature of Damage: Structural damage to forward
fuselage in area of nose landing gear
.....
Having developed an incorrect landing technique, it is
possible
that it was simply a matter of time
before the timing in the application of full nose-down
elevator caused an incident
.....
Over the ensuing 1.125 seconds, the elevator position
changed
from 15.6degrees nose up at touchdown to
full nose down (20degrees) and the pitch attitude
began to reduce rapidly. The aircraft became light on the
main landing gear oleos but not enough to register
a change of state of the air / ground logic. The
right reverser indicated in transit just before the
(almost simultaneous) main landing gear recompression
and nose gear ground contact. A normal acceleration
of +1.6g was recorded during the
re-compression of the main landing gear. The rate of
derotation at nose gear oleo compression was
calculated to be 10degrees/second. This figure was
confirmed by the aircraft manufacturer who also stated
the design limit value to be 7°/second.

that was a very interesting read


wrote:
I happened to bump into this:-
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_507740.pdf