If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
son_of_flubber wrote on 3/28/2018 5:35 AM:
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 7:09:06 AM UTC-4, wrote: Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate of @145 when that heart rate is stress induced. I have a hard time believing that 145 bpm is a constant threshold across all ages and fitness levels. Does anyone know of a peer reviewed citation for that magic number? (Facebook and infowars.com do not count as legit 'research'.) How many 75+ year old hearts can even beat at 145+ bpm? Does the 145 bpm rule make older glider pilots immune from stress induced skill degradation? I think not. I'm sure the 145 doesn't apply to everyone! The 145 number is for 75 year olds, is based on a simple formula, and is only an estimate used to choose a safe heart rate limits during exercise. It's strictly age-based and the actual safe number will differ greatly within that age group. Any 75 year old with above average fitness can reach that heart rate easily just by running for a few minutes, jumping jacks, etc. I'm 75, modestly fit, and 30 seconds of jumping jacks gets me up to 135 bpm; I'd expect a full minute would get me to 145. No tunnel vision... -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
This whole thread is a pretty good discussion of the relevant factors.
I've thought about reviving SoaringRx now that I've retired, and the cognitive degradation during stress is petty complicated and interesting. Like most other causes of inadvertent stupidity, the pilot never has the situation figured out initially. The heart rate is seldom noticed, is not directly a cause, and is never a clue to the resolution of the crisis. I agree that training for emergencies, both planned (and, after competence with those) unplanned, will contribute greatly to safety. In this regard, we simply do not fly often enough. If I ruled the soaring world, everyone would do about a dozen ground launches to a low pattern once a month or so, to get really used to the way things look down there, get used to a low approach, and to build sick-and-rudder skills. A dozen four-hour flights a year feel good -- but that's only a dozen landings. Time, cost, and availability of equipment and instructors are all hindrances. DrDan |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
At 04:15 02 April 2018, danlj wroteOver the years I've found DrDans
articles in soaring magazine to be informative and enlightening and I was in the process of communicating with him when I saw his post on RAS. This whole thread is a pretty good discussion of the relevant factors. I've thought about reviving SoaringRx now that I've retired, and the cognitive degradation during stress is petty complicated and interesting. My initial article was an attempt at bringing to light a serious safety issue that to this day has not been addressed or included in flight training or training manuals. The more knowledgeable I became on this subject the more stunning it seemed that it is omitted from flight training manuals. It is a medical fact that sympathetic nervous system arousal is a normal subconscious response to incidents of high anxiety and stress. The effects can include issues like loss of peripheral vision, depth perception, audio exclusion and the slowing down or speeding up of the perception of time. Lastly the overall effect can be a loss of situational awareness to the extent that a pilot is incapable of avoiding an accident because he literally can’t see that it’s happening. DrDan’s states that “the cognitive degradation associated with stress is complicated, interesting and like most other causes of inadvertent stupidity, the pilot never has the situation figured out initially”. For pilots who have been killed or maimed in accidents, where sympathetic arousal was a factor. That statement is disingenuous as those pilots were not just being inadvertently stupid. The heart rate is seldom noticed, is not directly a cause, and is never a clue to the resolution of the crisis. I never stated or claimed that heart rate was the cause, my contention has been that heart rate was an indicator and that current technology now allows us to have real time awareness of our heart rate. If you don’t know you have a crisis you can’t very well resolve it. I agree that training for emergencies, both planned (and, after competence with those) unplanned, will contribute greatly to safety. In this regard, we simply do not fly often enough. If I ruled the soaring world, everyone would do about a dozen ground launches to a low pattern once a month or so, to get really used to the way things look down there, get used to a low approach, and to build sick-and-rudder skills. A dozen four-hour flights a year feel good -- but that's only a dozen landings. Time, cost, and availability of equipment and instructors are all hindrances. DrDan It seems DrDan has closed the potential for further discussion on this subject. For those pilots who believe this is all poppycock and they are too good to be bothered by anything as simple as anxiety or stress, that is your prerogative. As a flight instructor I’ve always believed we have an obligation to assure that students are as well informed as possible. Consequently, if there is any other soaring doctor out there who feels that this is a credible topic that should become an article in soaring magazine. Feel free to contact me at and I will collaborate on an article. Martin Eiler |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-4, soarin wrote:
At 04:15 02 April 2018, danlj wroteOver the years I've found DrDans articles in soaring magazine to be informative and enlightening and I was in the process of communicating with him when I saw his post on RAS. This whole thread is a pretty good discussion of the relevant factors. I've thought about reviving SoaringRx now that I've retired, and the cognitive degradation during stress is petty complicated and interesting.. My initial article was an attempt at bringing to light a serious safety issue that to this day has not been addressed or included in flight training or training manuals. The more knowledgeable I became on this subject the more stunning it seemed that it is omitted from flight training manuals. It is a medical fact that sympathetic nervous system arousal is a normal subconscious response to incidents of high anxiety and stress. The effects can include issues like loss of peripheral vision, depth perception, audio exclusion and the slowing down or speeding up of the perception of time. Lastly the overall effect can be a loss of situational awareness to the extent that a pilot is incapable of avoiding an accident because he literally can’t see that it’s happening. DrDan’s states that “the cognitive degradation associated with stress is complicated, interesting and like most other causes of inadvertent stupidity, the pilot never has the situation figured out initially”. For pilots who have been killed or maimed in accidents, where sympathetic arousal was a factor. That statement is disingenuous as those pilots were not just being inadvertently stupid. The heart rate is seldom noticed, is not directly a cause, and is never a clue to the resolution of the crisis. I never stated or claimed that heart rate was the cause, my contention has been that heart rate was an indicator and that current technology now allows us to have real time awareness of our heart rate. If you don’t know you have a crisis you can’t very well resolve it. I agree that training for emergencies, both planned (and, after competence with those) unplanned, will contribute greatly to safety. In this regard, we simply do not fly often enough. If I ruled the soaring world, everyone would do about a dozen ground launches to a low pattern once a month or so, to get really used to the way things look down there, get used to a low approach, and to build sick-and-rudder skills. A dozen four-hour flights a year feel good -- but that's only a dozen landings. Time, cost, and availability of equipment and instructors are all hindrances. DrDan It seems DrDan has closed the potential for further discussion on this subject. For those pilots who believe this is all poppycock and they are too good to be bothered by anything as simple as anxiety or stress, that is your prerogative. As a flight instructor I’ve always believed we have an obligation to assure that students are as well informed as possible. Consequently, if there is any other soaring doctor out there who feels that this is a credible topic that should become an article in soaring magazine. Feel free to contact me at and I will collaborate on an article. Martin Eiler I, like Marty, have been waiting to see if anything useful came out of the thread. So far- not much. I believe that the stress related narrowing of inputs(tunnel vision in particular)is real. I also believe that training can reduce this. How you say? 1- Introduce the pilot/student to the issue by causing a difficult/ stressful situation and observe if the pilot reacts incorrectly. The natural tendency is to "concentrate" on the problem which will result in a lot of attention one thing (I'm really low- or other)to the detriment of other inputs(too close, too high , too slow, too fast, skid, slip, etc) leading to a poor result due to abandoning the basics. Allow the resulting poor result to happen without letting it get to dangerous. 2- After it is over have a conversation about what happened and why. I teach that in a difficult situation "concentration" is exactly the wrong thing to do and that the pilot needs to recognize that it isn't so good and remember to stick with basics, open up and look around,and RELAX. I learned many years ago(thanks Rolf)that in a strange landing situation, under stress, most of us will get in too close and tight and all jammed up leading to a poor result, especially in an off field landing. Beginners commonly do this in their first field landings. More of these are overshoots than undershoots. I test that this information has been learned during the prep for PP practical tests by overloading(moderately) and distracting, while adding to test stress(I have to pass with Hank before I can take the flight test). Almost all who have been exposed to the stress simulation in training do just fine.. They also don't have much test stress during the real thing because they already have encountered it. I hope this is responsive to Marty's inquiry. FWIW UH |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjsws679vx...ents.docx?dl=0 above is a Drop box link to this article for easier reading March 3,2018 Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents For clarity, all references to tunnel vision in this article relate to an actual visual impairment, where the individual can only properly focus on objects in a narrow “tunnel-like" field. Sometimes referred to as "peripheral vision loss" or “reduced visual perception”. Which is totally different than the mental tunnel vision often inferred to as a contributing cause in accidents, which can be defined as one’s tendency to focus on a single goal or point of view. On a BFR flight in the spring of 2013, I sat in the back seat of a Grob 103 as one of our most respected high time xc pilots silently dealt with what should have been a simple (simulated) spoilers failed full open landing. Just prior to turning downwind when the pilot checked his spoilers, I alerted him to the fact that I was holding the spoilers open to simulate a mechanical failure. He proceeded to turn downwind at the normal location, altitude and airspeed, then ask “if he still needed to use some slip during the landing as previously requested”. I replied “no, you’re now dealing with a simulated emergency, just make a safe landing on the airport. (For those unfamiliar with a Grob 103, with full spoilers at 60 kts the rate of descent is close to 1200 feet per minute). Not surprisingly after a few moments on downwind the pilot became aware of our rapid altitude loss and without saying anything he immediately turned base. At this point, I assumed he had given up on the glider runway and was now planning to land on the closer parallel main runway. Apparently, he could not see that our L/D was not going to get us to the runway, let alone have the remaining altitude necessary to then turn finale and land. I refrained from commenting fully expecting that at any moment he would announce that he needs to close the spoilers to make a safe landing, but silently he pressed on seemingly undaunted by the decaying situation. Finally at a point 200 feet North of the runway half way thru a rapidly descending left turn to final and with the left tip less than a half wingspan from the ground. I loudly barked “my glider” as I slammed the spoilers closed, arrested the descent and leveled the wings to maneuver and land on the runway then to roll up and stop at the mid field taxiway. I was dumbfounded and clueless as to how such a qualified pilot could have been completely oblivious to the fact that he was but a few heartbeats away from destroying the glider and likely crippling or killing us both. Our post landing debrief was eye opening to say the least. question: “when I took the glider how high do you think our left tip was above the ground” reply: “I’m not sure but I thought we were ok and maybe fifty feet above the ground” question: “at the moment I took the glider, where were you looking” reply: he raised his right hand putting his thumb and index finger together to make circle to look thru and stated “I was looking at where I wanted to go on the runway and it was like I was looking thru a tube” question: “did you feel like you were stressed during that landing” reply: “I definitely had a lot of anxiety” His description of seemingly looking thru a tube, sounded remarkably similar to what I had experienced back in 1988 on one of my first glider rides. A local pilot wanted to fly the Grob 103 from the back seat, so I went along as front seat ballast. Briefly into his second consecutive loop, I was surprised when my peripheral vision collapsed to the point that all I could see was the instrument panel. Having read about g-induced tunnel vision, greying out, and eventual blacking out, I tried pushing the blood back up to my eyes by tightening the muscles in my legs and abdomen.. Magically it worked, and my vision immediately opened back up to normal. In 2013 when this pilot described the visual limitation of seemingly looking thru a tube. I began a research project into learning about what I believed must be a connection between tunnel vision and accidents. While there are there are numerous medical, biological or environmental conditions that can cause tunnel vision. Research shows that the anxiety, stress and fear, pilots feel when they perceive they are facing a life-threatening event, triggers the hypothalamus to activate two systems: the sympathetic nervous system and the adrenal-cortical system. The first phase of this is what is known as the fight or flight response (interestingly in some individuals it’s actually an or freeze response). The stress hormones adrenalin and noradrenalin from the adrenal medulla along with approximately 30 hormones from the adrenal cortex enter the blood stream. The heart rate and blood pressure rise, preparing the body to deal with the threat. With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM, complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction times are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical performance begins to suffer dramatically. Tunnel vision, loss of peripheral vision, loss of depth perception, auditory exclusion, the slowing down or speeding up of time as well a decay in complex motor skills are common. At heart rates above 175 BPM even a well-trained combatant experiences a catastrophic break down of mental and physical performance and most combatants experience bladder and bowl voiding. I realize that lacking any name recognition in the soaring community this article may well fall on deaf ears. I believe the best I can hope for is that some small percentage of pilots and instructors, will be intrigued enough to do their own research on this subject. If they see the value in it, they will start a grass roots movement to have it pushed thru and addressed at a national level. For those pilots who believe they are too good to be susceptible to this phenomenon. Best wishes For those pilots who believe they quite susceptible to this issue. Seek out an exceptional instructor who can challenge your skills and expand your comfort level with diverse training I believe that shedding light on what should be a serious safety concern for all pilots, was an important first step. Learn to recognize your signs of stress/anxiety, practice tactical breathing as an aid in calming down. Take corrective action immediately when available to mitigate the stressor. During landings learn to consciously and regularly look left and right during the approach to help prevent or brake tunnel vision. Verbalizing what you see and your intentions (even when solo) helps prevent tunnel vision. Invest in a wearable heart rate monitor and use it regularly to gauge your own stress levels, pay special attention to its recording following emergency training or off field landings. Lend it to other fellow pilots.. This age of technology provides us with a slew of wearable heart rate monitors, some relatively cheap and some rather exotic and expensive. There are watches available that constantly display current heart rate, record your daily heart rate information, have settable alarms and even blue tooth to smart phones that display current heart rate information. The FitBit AltaHR is but one of numerous wearable wrist band heart rate monitors that send continuous current heart rate to an Iphone. Most instructors would value being able to have some real insight into their students stress levels during flight training, particularly during emergency maneuvers. Viewing pertinent data post flight could be an invaluable tool for the student and instructor. I give John Cochran credit for being willing to voice his opinions regarding contest safety issues. Maybe he can convince some contest pilots to wear heart rate monitors, so there can be some hard data to share regarding pilot stress levels during low saves. Having been involved as a soaring FBO, instructor and examiner for over a quarter century. I always took great pride in the fact that I provided students a level of training that assured their safety, as opposed to just meeting the FAA’s published minimums. I slept well at night, knowing I should never have a student come thru the door in a wheel chair and ask “why didn’t you teach me about that”. This article is my final installment in that process. Get high, go far, go fast and come home safe. Marty Eiler This seems to be a circular argument. If you don't know you have a problem, why would your heart rate be elevated? JMF |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 4:32:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
... 2- After it is over have a conversation about what happened and why. I teach that in a difficult situation "concentration" is exactly the wrong thing to do and that the pilot needs to recognize that it isn't so good and remember to stick with basics, open up and look around,and RELAX. Thanks for that insight, unc. But how do you get your students to "relax" under stress? Is it the repetitive exposure to stress, and the post-flight discussions of it, which do that? Do they reduce the stress, or rather help the student recognize its presence and deal with it? |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-4, soarin wrote:
It seems DrDan has closed the potential for further discussion on this subject. There seems to be some misunderstanding and conclusion jumping here. Was your pulse over 140 when you made this post? |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 5:36:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 4:32:09 PM UTC-4, wrote: ... 2- After it is over have a conversation about what happened and why. I teach that in a difficult situation "concentration" is exactly the wrong thing to do and that the pilot needs to recognize that it isn't so good and remember to stick with basics, open up and look around,and RELAX. Thanks for that insight, unc. But how do you get your students to "relax" under stress? Is it the repetitive exposure to stress, and the post-flight discussions of it, which do that? Do they reduce the stress, or rather help the student recognize its presence and deal with it? I try to have them recognize the stressful situation and, in doing so remember to stay with basics. The lesson is that you do not do better by concentrating harder. It reminds me of the (true) story of a pilot that knew he was on a very marginal glide back to the airport. He concentrated so hard on the glide computer that the first clue he picked up that he was critically low was the flash of the telephone pole he went by in his peripheral vision. Obviously an extreme example. Another lesson I teach at safety meetings is that when you relax after a high stress time,you will have a period of diminished brain power( I call it post stress stupidity). The antidote is to not allow yourself to relax until the landing, or save, or whatever is over. FWIW UH |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
Since I have gone through this training, and have used it as well......."Train for the worst, hope for the best".
No, I am not saying to think "sweet thoughts and butterflies" lest someone comes back with a remark. Sometimes it is, at 200', "what would you do if the rope broke right now?". If they hesitate, and conditions allow, yank the release and state, "rope break, now what?". Again, throw it at them, see what they do. I have had students throw up their hands and say, "your ship". If I think we have margin, I will put my hands on their shoulders and say, "so we go down together, what do you do next?". The goal is not to prove I am better. The goal is not to scare the student. The goal is not to chase a student off. The goal is to see what a student will do under pressure while someone else can successfully end the flight. At some point, an instructor has to sign off a student (actually they don't "have to", there are some students that should find something else to do), better to have some clue what said student will do when crap happens. A bit of stress in a semi controlled situation is a decent barometer of what may happen down the road. Heck, I have pulled the release, during BFR's/field checks, at 1800'AGL and said, "rope break". Curious to see the response. Situational awareness is major here. At the end of any of these flights above, discuss what went well, what may need work. Also find out what the student/testee saw or thought. Work from there. |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 6:30:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-4, soarin wrote: It seems DrDan has closed the potential for further discussion on this subject. There seems to be some misunderstanding and conclusion jumping here. Was your pulse over 140 when you made this post? Right. I don't see why such a reaction to Dr. Dan's post, which actually agreed with a lot of what the detractors said. Dr. Dan: thank you for your long-time column in Soaring Magazine! And if you do revive it, doubly thanks! |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
China navy may surpass U.S. in 11 types of weapons: Report deepensU.S. anxiety | Timur | Naval Aviation | 6 | December 7th 09 10:35 PM |
Quieting a gasoline driven compressor | Michael Horowitz | Home Built | 4 | October 14th 07 08:07 PM |
Battery-Driven Tanis | Marco Leon | Piloting | 30 | February 4th 07 11:39 AM |
Pump driven prop???? | Montblack | Home Built | 5 | May 19th 06 11:21 PM |
Turbulence Anxiety | Doug | Piloting | 19 | June 24th 04 12:51 AM |