Tost release and chain links

Chain links are often used instead of TOST rings for ground tows behind golf carts, as they are much cheaper. I noticed today that I can easily slide the chain link out of the nose hook of my glider without pulling the release, while in other gliders I can’t. Looks like my release has slightly more play, enough for the chain link to release, but not enough for the Tost ring which seem secured thanks to its larger size and thickness. Do other had such experience? Is there a reason to be concerned?

Ramy

On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:34:44 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Chain links are often used instead of TOST rings for ground tows behind golf carts, as they are much cheaper. I noticed today that I can easily slide the chain link out of the nose hook of my glider without pulling the release, while in other gliders I can’t. Looks like my release has slightly more play, enough for the chain link to release, but not enough for the Tost ring which seem secured thanks to its larger size and thickness. Do other had such experience? Is there a reason to be concerned?

Ramy

Maybe there is no reason for concern if the chain link is used only for towing on the ground - unless using the chain link damages the Tost.

But, some years ago, when I was even more stupid than I am now, I had two, low altitude premature tow line releases when the chain link at the end of the tow rope slipped out of the Tost. I had carefully examined the weak link and ignored the metal link! Haven't done that since.

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 6:42:09 AM UTC-7, Jim wrote:
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:34:44 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Chain links are often used instead of TOST rings for ground tows behind golf carts, as they are much cheaper. I noticed today that I can easily slide the chain link out of the nose hook of my glider without pulling the release, while in other gliders I can’t. Looks like my release has slightly more play, enough for the chain link to release, but not enough for the Tost ring which seem secured thanks to its larger size and thickness. Do other had such experience? Is there a reason to be concerned?

Ramy

Maybe there is no reason for concern if the chain link is used only for towing on the ground - unless using the chain link damages the Tost.

But, some years ago, when I was even more stupid than I am now, I had two, low altitude premature tow line releases when the chain link at the end of the tow rope slipped out of the Tost. I had carefully examined the weak link and ignored the metal link! Haven't done that since.

A thinner ring can escape from the release, or as I discovered not release under tension without some wiggling. In my case the latter was after a landing on tow in an ASK21. The chain link sat entirely on the non-moving part of the nose release and was happy to stay in place with the release held open.
This could happen with a chain link or worn Tost ring.
Jim

On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:34:44 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Chain links are often used instead of TOST rings for ground tows behind golf carts, as they are much cheaper. snipped part

Do other had such experience? Is there a reason to be concerned?

Ramy

On the ground, not as much for concern..... unless you are towing on non-level ground and don't want the glider to escape the towing vehicle. A single person on a tip and an unleashed glider might result in ground handling damage.

Chain links for Tost hooks in flight are a bad, BAD idea.
They can release when wanted connected.
They can remain connected when wanting a release (by binding on the beak).

Chain link is typically not a hardened material.
The softness will allow a chain link to be eroded over time in using on a hard Tost beak inside the round collar. Eventually it will conform to the shape of the beak, and not slide off easily. Particularly under normal tow tension.

There is a reason the Tost ring pair has a ROUND ring for the beak. And it is
more expensive due to the process of hardening, and inspection after making.
In this case, please use the right part for the job!

I was once consulted by an AS-K 21 owner that was considering cutting out the
Tost assembly to remount in a different angle, due to the chain links not releasing under aero tow. I told them they could use Tost rings and throw them away every year for the price of cutting up and changing their glider's nose.
They began buying Tost rings.
JS knows the origin of that tale....
True story.

Cindy B

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 2:50:21 PM UTC-4, CindyB wrote:
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:34:44 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Chain links are often used instead of TOST rings for ground tows behind golf carts, as they are much cheaper. snipped part

Do other had such experience? Is there a reason to be concerned?

Ramy

On the ground, not as much for concern..... unless you are towing on non-level ground and don't want the glider to escape the towing vehicle. A single person on a tip and an unleashed glider might result in ground handling damage.

Chain links for Tost hooks in flight are a bad, BAD idea.
They can release when wanted connected.
They can remain connected when wanting a release (by binding on the beak).

Chain link is typically not a hardened material.
The softness will allow a chain link to be eroded over time in using on a hard Tost beak inside the round collar. Eventually it will conform to the shape of the beak, and not slide off easily. Particularly under normal tow tension.

There is a reason the Tost ring pair has a ROUND ring for the beak. And it is
more expensive due to the process of hardening, and inspection after making.
In this case, please use the right part for the job!

I was once consulted by an AS-K 21 owner that was considering cutting out the
Tost assembly to remount in a different angle, due to the chain links not releasing under aero tow. I told them they could use Tost rings and throw them away every year for the price of cutting up and changing their glider's nose.
They began buying Tost rings.
JS knows the origin of that tale....
True story.

Cindy B

They can remain connected when wanting a release (by binding on the beak).

Couldn't agree more with you, Cindy! Just to elaborate as to why that happens: a normal chain link at yielding load will deform and assume a hour-glass shape. That action nicely swages the link onto the beak.
Heavy duty chains like anchor chains or coal-plow chains have an insert on the inside in support of the link.
The old Tost double ring pair had a small oval ring which connected to the beak. They changed that for exactly the reason described above.

Uli
'AS'

I fly from an operation that uses chain links on their tow ropes. When I fly my bird I use my own weak link bridle with tost. If I travel to another location I always check what is on the end of the rope as if they don’t use a tost I will use my weak link. Just wondering how many places actually use chain links?

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 5:38:51 PM UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I fly from an operation that uses chain links on their tow ropes. When I fly my bird I use my own weak link bridle with tost. If I travel to another location I always check what is on the end of the rope as if they don’t use a tost I will use my weak link. Just wondering how many places actually use chain links?

Its not still April 1st is it??

No it is not April 1.

At 20:51 06 April 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
No it is not April 1.

I recall a fatal accident involving a Blanik in northern New England
where a chain link was supposedly used by the operators on the tow
rope... It has happened. People are cheap, and don't want to pay
for the Tost links if they think they can get away with something
cheaper. If you find an operation that does this, it might behoove
you to look around some more, as there may be others areas where
the operation is lacking in safety awareness as well.

RO

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 12:38:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I fly from an operation that uses chain links on their tow ropes.

One of the pilots I know who 'has seen it all' likes to point out:

'lots of time, it is the stupid **** that kills people'.

Simple avoidable stuff kills people. Chain links on tow ropes is a perfect example.