More plane ownership?

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:33:29 GMT, "Dave Covert"
wrote:

I was going to say that based on your experience, I can see why more people
don't own expensive new planes, but then I read in the AOPA mag that Cirrus
is selling nearly one plane a day (1000 in less than 3 years).


BT Barnum said it best.

This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
a 150?).

Dave,
I own a 2003 Key West center console with a Yamaha 115hp 4stroke.
The equivalent to me would be a 2003 C172SP.
As you can already tell, there's a major price difference.
I could own a 36' live aboard cabin cruiser for the price of a new C172.
Not mention that the only payment being made when I don't use the boat is my
dry storage fee and insurance ($3400 per year).

Trust me when I say that if I could get as much use out of a plane as I do a
boat, I would gladly sell the boat to get a plane.

David - "Sailing away to Key Largo"

You Know how much it costs to work on a boat? Things break often just like
airplanes. One of my relitives used to own a $200,000 used boat = Price to
a new cessna 172SP he had a $200.00 part go out on the drive and got hit
with a $6,500 labor bill also go hit with a Large towing bill to get it
towed back to port from off the coast of washington! Make a story short it
broke him his insurance was about $4,000 a year on the boat Fuel burn was
arround 20 gallons an hour. Well he sold the boat 6 months after he got it
at about a 30% less than what he paid and the broker took 3% of that, He
still had $20,000 in bills from the mechanic, dry dock, & storage to pay out
of that. Now he own a Cessna 172R (he Bought it used low time) He is a
happy becuse it costs him way less in maintance and all other costs than the
boat and has more time to fly then boat airport closer to home. He also
likes being able to go more places other than water ways.


"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...
This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take
a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com

On 2-Feb-2004, "Dave Covert" wrote:

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find out is to listen to more pilots.


Beats me. I co-own a plane. Couldn't possibly afford to operate a large
(i.e. cabin cruiser class or above) powerboat. Fuel bills are staggering.
Large sailboat? Maintenance bills that make the annual on our Arrow look
like chump change.

Now, if we're talking about a SMALL boat, which can be had new for the price
you suggest, then operating and maintenance costs are well within what a
typical middle-class family could afford. But then again, in a co-ownership
arrangement the same can be said for a basic 4-place family airplane.
--
-Elliott Drucker

In article ,
writes:

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find out is to listen to more pilots.


Beats me. I co-own a plane. Couldn't possibly afford to operate a large
(i.e. cabin cruiser class or above) powerboat. Fuel bills are staggering.
Large sailboat? Maintenance bills that make the annual on our Arrow look
like chump change.


This thread got me thinking so I went back 5 years and calculated the cost of
each. I have an 1988 sailboat, Catalina 36, and a 1979 Piper Archer. I spent
$ 47356 (Wow, I didn't think it was that much) on the Archer and $26906 on the
Catalina. These are pretty good total numbers and include operating and fixed
costs. There is about $10k of upgrades in the plane and no upgrades to the
boat. I flew 615 hours in the plane ($77/hr), and sailed for 260 hours
(($104/hr). This doesn't tell the whole story, however. I spent little time
(maybe 5 hours a year) at the plane otherwise. Re the boat, we spend purhaps
15 weekends a year there. Social action at the yacht club, cook, eat, sleep,
party, etc. all are part of the boat besides sailing.

Really, the boat and plane are not that similar. The boat is better compared
to a second vacation home. Don't know what to compare the boat to except the
dream of a lifetime and a money pit.G I can see keeping the boat much longer
into ageing when the safe edge of flying has begin to dull.

Chuck

Well, I may be someone who can give some information.

Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since. I
hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless I
own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my target
airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day fund"
if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work for
hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)

The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at the
wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.

So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up sailing.
I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at ease.
So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.

Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going to
keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.) So,
I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat. You
can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a new
Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.

So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to lose
all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is performed.

I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they are
much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
sailing much more communal than flying.

I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's my
FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.

The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical expires
in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying, I'm
going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see if
I miss it.


"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...
This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take
a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave

your not going to get much plane for 15k-45k. Especially in the 15k area.

I am a plane owner. I paid right around 100k for mine and its not a big
plane. I bet for 100k I could get a boat that holds alot more then 4
people. I use my plane to fly my wife to Horse shows and horse auctions.
Gives me a reason to do long XC's and see more places. Boats do not do
anything for me. I am a PADI qualified scuba diver, but I prefer flying to
new places more then I like diving. Boats and diving is fun, for about an
hour.

2: The FAA rules do not bother me, annuals do not bother me, its part of
owning a plane and keeping it safe to fly. Its expensive to own an airplane,
airplanes have to be kept to a certain standard of maintence. I keep mine
plane in good shape because my life depends on it. when the day comes that I
feel that the FAA is over regulating and I dont want to do my annuals
because I dont feel someone should make me do them, then I will sell my
plane. But I dont see it happening in the near future.


Dave wrote:

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave

James,

I'm already an airplane owner and I'm completely sympathetic with your point
of view. At least once a month I wonder if it's all worth it, but that's
probably more a function of how I use my plane rather than strict economics:
if I was using my plane for business, rather than a weekend escape from the
usual grind I might not second guess myself so much. But as it stands now,
even on my modest PA28-140, I've spent a (for me) shocking amount of money.
It's quite sobering when you realize that the last few years of flying and
maintenance could have provided a nice chunk of your daughter's college fund
(not to imply that I've put flying in front of my daughter, I've been saving
for college too, but if I didn't fly I'd have been way ahead of the game).

When I bought my plane I decided that I would give ownership a try for two
years, then rethink the situation. I chose two years because the first year
is not always representative, especially your first annual. I decided to
buy something modest so I wouldn't break the bank, and in the first year I
was working on an IFR rating so I had plenty of excuses to fly. I'm halfway
through the trial period now, I have my IFR rating, but few excuses to fly.
My wife puts up a good front, but flying scares her and she's only been up
twice. She's suggested sailing instead which is inline with your comment
that flying is interesting, but people feel more comfortable on a boat. My
daughter isn't yet old enough to enjoy this so it's basically just me on the
weekends. Anticipating that this might happen, I decided that I would try
and fly for charity as another way to use the plane, but I'm waiting to see
if the 500 hour rule goes into effect (I'm about 100 hours short there).
We'll see how I feel at the end of the year...

So let's see, I think I covered about four threads he is owning worth
it...how can I justify flying...my spouse doesn't like it...I may just give
up ownership altogether. Oh, I forgot the FAA. Actually, I don't have
enough data to have an opinion the we haven't formally crossed paths yet,
and I don't think I've owned long enough to fully understand how badly I may
be getting taken.

cheers,
mark

"James Blakely" wrote in
message ...
Well, I may be someone who can give some information.

Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since. I
hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless I
own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my target
airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day fund"
if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work for
hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)

The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at
the
wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.

So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up sailing.
I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at ease.
So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.

Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going to
keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.)
So,
I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat. You
can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a new
Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.

So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to
lose
all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is performed.

I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they
are
much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
sailing much more communal than flying.

I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's
my
FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.

The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical
expires
in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying,
I'm
going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see
if
I miss it.


"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...
This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have
noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx
cost
of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on
the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most
leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not
cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to
take
a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same
thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't
think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because
they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with
the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to
shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that
causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow
every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email
me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea
of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com