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#21
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New ASK-21prices
On Oct 23, 10:41*am, "
wrote: But, but, but, you could have a bakers dozen 2-33s for the price of one ASK-21. *Someone had to say it first. *Good luck getting a club caught up to the present. (Just because I can't pass up on a metaphor). I'd rather have a nice BLT than a bakers dozen stale buns. Darryl |
#22
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New ASK-21prices
I have given instruction and rides in a 2-33, and a Grob 103. The
ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any difference in flying them inconsequential. I hated every minute I spent in the 2-33. Flying pig comes to mind when thinking of the 2-33. The rear seat is very uncomfortable in the 2-33. Going away from the airport in the 2-33 is not for the faint of heart, glide ratio of a brick. It is much easier to teach someone to fly the 2-33 than the Grob. Transitioning someone from the 2-33 to the Grob is more difficult than one would first think. Students trained in the Grob have very little difficulty transitioning to a single place glass ship, stepping out of a 2-33 into a single place glass ship would be a pretty big challenge for most low time pilots. If the goal of the club is to hook people on the sport, train cross country pilots, and get the cross country pilots in to competition flying, then sell the 2-33 to someone who does not know any better, and buy the ASK 21, or better yet a Duo Discus. Resale value, and being able to get parts over the expected 35 year life of the aircraft should make one pause before buying a PW6. SF |
#23
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New ASK-21prices
On 10/23/2010 11:54 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
Thanks to all the replies - both online and direct. Now comes the hard part - convincing the old guard that it's time to retire the 2-33 and move on. As far as the suggestion to get a motorglider - not interested. It may be the perfect plane for some people& clubs, but not for ours. I've considered the PW-6 and looked at one (did not get to fly it, unfortunately) and it's an interesting little glider - second on my list. I confess to a lot of time in K-21s, including giving commercial acro rides, and really like the way it flies. And it's a tough ship - far stronger than the Grob 103, IMO. Again, thanks for the feedback; hopefully at some time in the future I'll be able to report the purchase of a new glider... Kirk 66 The other thing I would consider is fleet commonality. Not only does this simplify maintenance, but it is also a safety issue. The typical club pilot only flies maybe 10-20 flights per season. If you have a variety of different ships, and members fly them randomly, a pilot will never be really current in the plane he/she is flying. There's a big plus to always having all the controls and instruments in the same location when you get into trouble. -- Mike Schumann |
#24
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New ASK-21prices
On Oct 23, 2:01*pm, SF wrote:
The ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any difference in flying them inconsequential That surprises me. The control feel or harmony of the K-21 is, in my opinion, far superior to the G103 (either the twin pig or the Acro) and the retract gear version is a killer in the back seat. About the only thing to dislike about the K-21 is the rear canopy. Andy (GY) |
#25
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New ASK-21prices
A new ASK-21 will arrive in January 2011 at Marfa Gliders Soaring
Center in southwest Texas. For sale after my K-21 arrives: My Blanik L-23 with huge collection of spare parts (most new and unused) including a complete set of new L-23 canopies (in frames), wheels, tailwheels, brakes, shock struts and much more. 1846 hours as of OCT 1, 2010. Come fly it / inspect it -- in my hangar at MRF airport. I'll probably keep my big enclosed Blanik trailer, so I might deliver the L-23 to a buyer, sometime in 2011. Private e-mail inquiries only for more details. |
#26
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New ASK-21prices
In article
, Andy wrote: On Oct 23, 2:01*pm, SF wrote: The ASK-21's I have flown were close enough to the Grob to make any difference in flying them inconsequential That surprises me. The control feel or harmony of the K-21 is, in my opinion, far superior to the G103 (either the twin pig or the Acro) and the retract gear version is a killer in the back seat. About the only thing to dislike about the K-21 is the rear canopy. I agree. My club has one of each, and I much prefer to fly the ASK-21 even though I'm a large guy and the Grob has a significantly more comfortable cockpit for my size. It flies well enough, and transitioning from the ASK-21 to the Grob during my training was pretty straightforward, but it just gets to be tiring to fly in thermals or bumpy conditions. -- Mike Ash Radio Free Earth Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon |
#27
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New ASK-21prices
On Oct 23, 10:33*am, bildan wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:53*am, RRK wrote: On Oct 21, 11:57*pm, bildan wrote: I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in the same league as the ASK-21. "bildan" * * * * * * * would you elaborate a little bit more on your's opinion. You stated that *PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why? Since you flown both of them, *I'm sure it will be easy to justified you conclusion. Could you share it with us ? Please. RRK It's just my humble opinion. *To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more rugged. *The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better and the controls are better harmonized. *The 21's cockpit is bigger. I love the docile stall behavior. Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep. |
#28
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New ASK-21prices
I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall
characteristics. I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it. Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall. What would your low-time student do in his own single seater if he always expected this kind of warning to keep him out of trouble? At 16:40 24 October 2010, GliderDriver wrote: On Oct 23, 10:33=A0am, bildan wrote: On Oct 23, 12:53=A0am, RRK wrote: On Oct 21, 11:57=A0pm, bildan wrote: I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in the same league as the ASK-21. "bildan" =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would you elaborate a little bit more on yo= ur's opinion. You stated that =A0PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why? Since you flown both of them, =A0I'm sure it will be easy to justified you conclusion. Could you share it with us ? Please. RRK It's just my humble opinion. =A0To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more rugged. =A0The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better and the controls are better harmonized. =A0The 21's cockpit is bigger. I love the docile stall behavior. Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep. |
#29
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New ASK-21prices
1. After 600 hours in a PW-6, I have NEVER experienced the stall
characteristics you describe. 2. what acro did you do -- limits are no inverted maneuvers Your one flight experience seems strange . Where was it? "Nyal Williams" wrote in message ... I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall characteristics. I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it. Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall. At 16:40 24 October 2010, GliderDriver wrote: On Oct 23, 10:33=A0am, bildan wrote: On Oct 23, 12:53=A0am, RRK wrote: On Oct 21, 11:57=A0pm, bildan wrote: I've flown both and while the PW-6 is a very nice glider, it's not in the same league as the ASK-21. "bildan" =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would you elaborate a little bit more on yo= ur's opinion. You stated that =A0PW-6 is in the different league than K-21. Why? Since you flown both of them, =A0I'm sure it will be easy to justified you conclusion. Could you share it with us ? Please. RRK It's just my humble opinion. =A0To me the ASK-21 feels more solid, more rugged. =A0The ASK-21's larger wing seems to hold on to weak lift better and the controls are better harmonized. =A0The 21's cockpit is bigger. I love the docile stall behavior. Another factor is the rear cockpit. We (TSA) evaluated a PW-6 early on (2003?). Most instructors disliked the rear cockpit. It very much felt like an afterthought: cramped, poor forward visibility and communication with the front-seater because of the tall instrument panel. We now own three ASK-21's. They earn their keep. |
#30
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New ASK-21prices
Hi Gang
I have only about 6 hours in the PW6 but have flown maybe 30 other gliders and motor gliders. To be able to fly solo in the PW6per club rules I had to demonstrate stalls and recovery from spins. There absolutely was no extreme buffeting as I approached stall. In fact my take on the PW6 was that both its stall and spin recovery characteristics are benign. It is an ideal glider for instruction unlike the 21 which will not normally spin unless weighted down in the rear. So what do I conclude? If the buffeting on a particular PW6 was as described there was something very wrong with that PW6. Dave On Oct 26, 6:51*am, "Charles Yeates" wrote: 1. After 600 hours in a PW-6, I have NEVER experienced *the stall characteristics you describe. 2. what acro did you do -- limits are no inverted maneuvers Your one flight experience seems strange . Where was it? "Nyal Williams" wrote in message ... I would not want to train students in the PW-6 owing to its stall characteristics. *I had one flight three years ago and we did acro in it. Perhaps it is the all-flying stabilizer, but there is etreme buffeting if you approach the stall slowly -- so much so that the stick will jerk backward and forward in your hand a couple of knots above stall. |
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