A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Condor



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old March 12th 13, 01:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 746
Default Condor

Tony,

That's a very cool simulator. Congratulations to those who made it. I hope you make good use of it.

Bill D
  #22  
Old March 12th 13, 02:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Terry Pitts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 46
Default Condor

I find it interesting that no one in the power world talks about Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane being great for teaching yourself how to fly. The opposite generally seems to be true, CFI's comment that the simmers can read the instruments, but can't really fly in a 3D world.

I believe that a simulator, supervised by an instructor, can be a useful introduction to lessons before flying them. I used MS FSX when teaching an instrument ground school a few years ago. My students, who were all experienced VFR pilots, thought it was great.

The January issue of Soaring had a Condor article along the lines of "I taught myself winch launching and I felt so prepared when I did it for real." More than half my flights are via winch launch and nothing I've seen simulated approaches the real thing.

The current issue of the German magazine Segelfliegen has a rather anti-simulator article written by a physician. The basic premise is that in emergencies we react the way we've practiced. The first time someone tries to get out of a spin by twisting the stick to be the rudders there will be a bad outcome. Other shortcomings of simulator training/practice/self study are detailed. I emailed Chuck Coyne offering to translate the article if he's interested in running it, but no answer.

Imagine a new soaring student spending ten supervised minutes practicing aerotow just before a first flight, or even before each of the first several flights. I can see rapid progress there.

The night before my IFR checkride I practice flew the cross-country flight I had been told to plan. I didn't make any of the mistakes on the checkride that I did in practice - they were all new!

So, I'm not opposed to sims as fun, as an interesting technical challenge, and a teaching tool under the right circumstances. I get really, really tired of Condor-is-better-than-sliced-bread, the world can hardly live without Condor page after page after page. I'd much rather skip it every other issue or quarterly instead of monthly.

Thread drift, but related to the magazine. I find it interesting that the reported statistics indicate that very few pilots are interesting in competition, but page after page of contest details keep showing up. Boring.

Editors of publications like Soaring complain they can only print what they get. I submitted a couple articles that were well received by everyone who read them, I withdrew them after almost two years of promises, including one "please review this because I'm going to use it in the [ground launch] issue then it was a no show. I've put a couple people in touch with the magazine about some interesting topics challenging the standard perception of stall/spin accidents (accident pictures often show the results of what was likely an inverted spin...) or a neat potential article based on a presentation by an olympic team-level sports optician about selecting proper sunglasses suitable for soaring (contrast, protect depth perception, color/tint selection, etc.).

The Germans and the Brits turn out big, glossy, interesting magazines. Why can't we have the same?

I don't want to turn into a nattering nabob of negativity. Detour over...

Terry
  #23  
Old March 12th 13, 03:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 746
Default Condor

On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:36:17 PM UTC-6, Terry Pitts wrote:
I find it interesting that no one in the power world talks about Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane being great for teaching yourself how to fly. The opposite generally seems to be true, CFI's comment that the simmers can read the instruments, but can't really fly in a 3D world.



That's because the "power world" has far better simulator options. BTW, "airplane" works for me.

I actually haven't heard any negative comments. The CAP airplane Cadet orientation ride pilots seems to speak in awe of how well the kids with sim experience do. My experience with the cadets in glider is the same.
  #24  
Old March 12th 13, 04:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bart[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 122
Default Condor

On Mar 11, 5:14*pm, Bill D wrote:
That's a very cool simulator. *Congratulations to those who made it. *I hope you make good use of it.


+1

B.
  #25  
Old March 12th 13, 04:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Condor

Folks,

Here is my take on Condor. I have been flying it for 7.5 years, before I soloed and a lot after. I have seen all the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when it comes to learning to fly with the simulator.

Condor is an excellent tool for teaching concepts. I see it as a good tool for an instructor to show what they will be doing in a flight, such as boxing the wake, or a rope break, and then having the student practice and learn the concept, and do it in reality. For primary training, it can be a very useful tool if supervised by a competent instructor.

I flew Condor for many years before I learned to fly unsupervised. Because of this, I acquired a couple bad habits that I had to break in my real life flying. On landing, I would move the spoilers too much, I used to move the stick too much, and for a while I would be glued to the panel. I would say that after solo, it took me a little longer to learn how to thermal because of some of the bad habits I learned in the simulator.

HOWEVER! Once, I learned how to thermal and fly the ridge, all the of the advanced cross country training and competition I have done over the years kicked right in. Remember, Condor is intended to be a competition simulator, not a training sim. Once I was ready to go for Silver Distance, I had no issue going XC, sine I have done it so much in the simulator. Judging glideslope, wind direction, thermal placement; all was learned in the simulator. As a result, I was able to do more and more ambitious cross countries in a short period of time, since I had so much already figured out due to Condor.. I went from Silver Distance in August 2011 to Diamond Distance in April 2012, and winning contest days at my first contest in July 2012. That would have been IMPOSSIBLE without the excellent benefits of Condor.

More importantly, in those hard times as a kid unable to get out to the airport, it kept me interested in the sport and kept me going. I think Condor's immense benefits negate some of its minor issues, and those issues can be easily dealt with if they are approached correctly.

So there you have it...

Regards,
Daniel Sazhin
  #26  
Old March 12th 13, 11:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 681
Default Condor

For everyone talking about Condor being a _bad_ idea for training, I
keep seeing one constant thread running through those comments: The
idea that someone will "learn the wrong way" to do something. Or that
they will "play" in Condor instead of "learn" in Condor.

The point is that Condor is a TOOL. Much like a wrench is a TOOL. It
can be used properly, and it can be used improperly. You can learn bad
habits in Condor just like you can screw up a bunch of nails by trying
to use a wrench to drive them into a wall (instead of using a hammer).
Or, to bring this a little closer to home for the CFIGs out the
Improper use of Condor is no different from the improper use of props
and visual aids in a ground-school session.

If you're an instructor (like "Echo" in this thread) and you see a
student do something stupid and claim they've done it in Condor, then
YOU - the instructor - have a duty to talk to the student and get them
using the tool properly (or not at all). Don't blame the simulator
for the student's misuse of it. When you read about a fuel-starvation
accident do you blame the airplane for not having big enough gas
tanks? No, you blame the pilot for bad planning or not properly
fueling the airplane.

--Noel

  #27  
Old March 12th 13, 11:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Cook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 83
Default Condor

Instructors use many "tools" in addition to actual flight training...we
have use these for years:

Books (written word)
Spoken word
Photographs
diagrams
charts
video
models

Condor is just a progression of all of those.

Cookie




At 22:37 12 March 2013, noel.wade wrote:
For everyone talking about Condor being a _bad_ idea for training, I
keep seeing one constant thread running through those comments: The
idea that someone will "learn the wrong way" to do something. Or that
they will "play" in Condor instead of "learn" in Condor.

The point is that Condor is a TOOL. Much like a wrench is a TOOL. It
can be used properly, and it can be used improperly. You can learn bad
habits in Condor just like you can screw up a bunch of nails by trying
to use a wrench to drive them into a wall (instead of using a hammer).
Or, to bring this a little closer to home for the CFIGs out the
Improper use of Condor is no different from the improper use of props
and visual aids in a ground-school session.

If you're an instructor (like "Echo" in this thread) and you see a
student do something stupid and claim they've done it in Condor, then
YOU - the instructor - have a duty to talk to the student and get them
using the tool properly (or not at all). Don't blame the simulator
for the student's misuse of it. When you read about a fuel-starvation
accident do you blame the airplane for not having big enough gas
tanks? No, you blame the pilot for bad planning or not properly
fueling the airplane.

--Noel



  #28  
Old March 13th 13, 12:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jsoar Aero
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Condor


As a “senior” student pilot, with 25 years of powered ultralight and
ultralight glider flying experience yet only now going for my PPGL so I can
fly a “real” sailplane, I have found Condor to be very useful in my
learning process.

When I first started lessons I did 2 or 3 training flights one day a
weekend. Then nothing until the next weekend. I was not progressing all
that well with cross-wind aero-tow take-offs and landings, with just the
few seconds each flight to learn how to deal with them.

Then someone at the club suggested Condor. So I set up a system and started
flying several times during the week. It allowed me to explore the dynamics
of most flight maneuvers by trying things to see what happened, until I
figured out what was going on. Then with a lot of practice, my correct
reactions became more automatic.

The Condor sessions also allowed me to stay focused on flying during the
week, so I was ready to go the first flight of the next real-life session.
My flying quickly improved after that.

Now I mostly fly Condor set to strong (gusty) winds, so I have to keep my
head out of the cockpit and watch the horizon and ground all the time to
control my speed and direction. Then with only time for an occasional
glance at the panel, it helped me to learn to read and interpret the
instruments quickly.

Also I set Condor up with LK8000 on a PDA and have been learning some of
the issues of cross-country flying, which has been a lot of fun too.

Maybe Condor is not that great for starting students, I don't know, but it
sure helped me in my situation.


  #29  
Old March 13th 13, 01:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default Condor

Good information coming out here... thanks.

But what about Scott's assertion that scratch students ought to be empowered to teach themselves how to fly using Condor? That's what I'm skeptical about. Emergency procedures? I can see using Condor to pre-view and re-view a lesson plan *with an instructor*. If it becomes the lesson plan, if it's self directed, I call BS. I have no problem with students practicing this stuff between lessons. I think the bennies called out here by others are valid. Part of the instructor's *essential* involvement here (this is so obvious) is to say "right, this here is a procedures trainer, we're going to use it to train *procedures*, and btw, reality can be a little more complicated".

A good friend of mine... with about 4000 hours in everything from hang gliders to twin turbo props stalled (at 3000 agl) / spun / spiral dove his 18m sailplane right into the ground after pulling the wings off a few years ago. Multiple witnesses. There's only one plausible reason and that's failure to provide the correct control inputs. Probably, he skated on some aspect of training in gliders....

My $0.02

T8
  #30  
Old March 13th 13, 02:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 746
Default Condor

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:02:16 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
Good information coming out here... thanks.


But what about Scott's assertion that scratch students ought to be empowered to teach themselves how to fly using Condor? That's what I'm skeptical about. Emergency procedures? I can see using Condor to pre-view and re-view a lesson plan *with an instructor*. If it becomes the lesson plan, if it's self directed, I call BS.


Condor is pretty good at punishing bad habits so I really can't see that as a problem. Fly it right or you crash. Gliders 'stall', 'spin', suffer wing flutter, 'lose their wings' and generally 'crash' for the same reasons real gliders do. If you indulge in multi-player flying, you can even suffer mid-air collisions. While I haven't seen any bad habits develop, I have seen it unduly frighten students who have 'crashed'. That's where an instructor can help.

I think a bigger issue is where the typical 14 years old is a Condor expert and the typical 50+ instructor looks bad because he can't fly the damned PC simulator. That's generating some Condor "bad mouthing".

So, can someone "teach themselves to fly" with Condor? That depends on what you mean. They can learn fly well enough to perform PTS maneuvers to PP-G standards but no DPE would mistake them as ready to receive a certificate.. There's no substitute for real-world flying with an instructor to develop finesse and most of all confidence. I don't think Scott said any different. I see the real benefit as cutting the number of flights and hours back toward the FAA minimum to receive their certificate.


A good friend of mine... with about 4000 hours in everything from hang gliders to twin turbo props stalled (at 3000 agl) / spun / spiral dove his 18m sailplane right into the ground after pulling the wings off a few years ago. Multiple witnesses. There's only one plausible reason and that's failure to provide the correct control inputs. Probably, he skated on some aspect of training in gliders....


I'm very sorry to hear that. I've had the misfortune to see two such in-flight breakups. Maybe if your friend had spent winters flying Condor, it wouldn't have happened.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Condor Thanksgiving and Condor Christmas Contests [email protected] Soaring 0 October 22nd 12 03:33 PM
The Boy Who Flew With Condor DVD Paul Remde Soaring 10 February 20th 12 09:33 AM
Condor Soaring Jacob Olsen Soaring 7 January 5th 06 01:11 PM
Condor flight sim nimbusgb Soaring 6 May 18th 05 01:31 PM
TL-232 Condor for sale Sten-Anders Fellman Aviation Marketplace 0 September 26th 04 03:29 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.